Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
12 Posts

Steam» Forums » General

Subject: Action Tiles and Turn Priority rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Roland Wood
United States
Visalia
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It has been mentioned elsewhere that we do not know the priority numbers for turn order on each action tile. The rules list the action tiles thusly:

1) Turn Order (Go first next turn)
2) First Move (Ship a cube first this turn)
3) Engineer (Build an extra track tile this turn)
4) First Build (Go first building track this turn)
5) City Growth (Add cubes to a city) (Can Pass)
6) Locomotive (Improve your train immediately)
7) Urbanization (Upgrade a town to a city) (Can Pass)

So are the numbers in front simply there for listing purposes or are those the actual priority numbers as well? It makes sense for Turn Order to be #1 because that is its function. But does the person who moves first this turn also get to go second in turn order next turn?

If these are the priority numbers how do they work out? I am a bit worried about some of them but I have obviously not played and I am trusting that they are the result of playtesting but still...

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Musselman
Canada
Burnaby
BC
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, if those are the real numbers, it seems First Move is a little overpowered. I'd put Engineer at #2, possibly followed by First Build or something like that.

Granted, my opinion is based on no Steam playtesting whatsoever (strictly Age of Steam experience), so who knows....
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Dewsbery
United Kingdom
Sutton Coldfield
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Those *are* the turn order numbers, and they *are* the result of extremely extensive playtesting, arguing, revision, contemplation and further testing. I can only speak for myself, but the testing done locally was all on the two Steam maps. Looking back on what I think is the earliest draft I have, there have been only two swaps in position between that set and the final rules (and one role that vanished altogether) - but many different combinations were tried along the way.

Everyone has their own views, of course, and local play style can affect their relative value - in some groups Engineer is seen as a top pick, in others it's frequently ignored.

Also some actions are better at certain points in the game than others, or are more or less useful depending upon number of players (First-anything is better with 5 players than with three; First Build is *usually* better nearer to the start of the game, First Move is *usually* better later on, and so on). So ultimately the ordering is not perfect in every situation, because there is no one "perfect" answer; the ordering is the best fit for the widest range of game styles, maps, player numbers and the ebb and flow within a single game.

Finally, these are the comparative values of the tiles - together with the financial cost - in the Base game. In my experience, the desireability of the actions changes when playing with the Standard rules, as (i) the fixed cost of certain actions goes away, replaced by the cost of the winnig bids, and (ii) the game pace changes somewhat (caused at least in part by money flowing on - or out - of the players' coffers at a different speed to the Base rules).
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Dewsbery
United Kingdom
Sutton Coldfield
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RDewsbery wrote:

Everyone has their own views, of course, and local play style can affect their relative value - in some groups Engineer is seen as a top pick, in others it's frequently ignored.


Take First Build as an example. There's no way *I* think it's so desireable that it needs to be down at number 4; but then, I'm a fairly poor track builder, and I'm still being caught out time and again by other people who can build better track than me - to those people, it's a very powerful action. It'd be number 2 if *I* was setting the values. But extensive playtesting by other people strongly suggests that I'd be wrong to give it that number.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anthony Simons
United Kingdom
Royal Wootton Bassett
Wiltshire
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RDewsbery wrote:
RDewsbery wrote:

Everyone has their own views, of course, and local play style can affect their relative value - in some groups Engineer is seen as a top pick, in others it's frequently ignored.


Take First Build as an example. There's no way *I* think it's so desireable that it needs to be down at number 4; but then, I'm a fairly poor track builder, and I'm still being caught out time and again by other people who can build better track than me - to those people, it's a very powerful action. It'd be number 2 if *I* was setting the values. But extensive playtesting by other people strongly suggests that I'd be wrong to give it that number.


For what it's worth I would put it at number 4; I might even put it higher than that. First build has to be the most common means of screwage I have seen used in the game; the values assigned are quite relative too. It's certainly more useful in most cases (as I see it) to take first build than it is to take turn order, first move or engineer.

But of course, as Richard has stated, the value of every action does change as the game evolves; I won't value it so much when I've no intention to build at all during the upcoming turn. And as has been noted by others elsewhere, the assigning of a solid value to actions of changeable worth adds a touch of chaos to the whole choice. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roland Wood
United States
Visalia
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Richard, did you ever notice a cycle pattern occurring like:

Turn 4
Player A: Chooses Turn Order
Player B: Chooses First Move
Players C - E: Choose others

Turn 5
Player A: Chooses First Move
Player B: Chooses Turn Order
Players C-E: Choose Others

Turn 6
Player B: Chooses First Move
Player A: Chooses Turn Order
Players C-E: Choose Others

And so on..

Maybe I am, as you say, putting to much importance on being first to move cubes. Maybe there are always other pressing issues. But it just seems a bit too easy for two players to dominate First Move. But perhaps they would both lose doing this...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Locomotive remains the most valuable action in the game. Karl's spreadsheet work for Age of Steam remains mostly valid for Steam, or you can do the arithmetic yourself.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Dewsbery
United Kingdom
Sutton Coldfield
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Roliander wrote:
Richard, did you ever notice a cycle pattern occurring like:


No. Never. It surprised me, but the closest things I saw to "patterns" were largely groupthink - that Turn Order was desired by some people in some games, and completely ignored by other people in other games. One grou - or set of circumstances - would make First Move insanely valuable, and with different players (or a different setup) it was largely ignored. But roles cycling back and forth? No, not really.

I'll admit that there are times when you will *want* to take Turn Order after Urbanize, to get Urbanize again next turn. But I didn't see a pattern repeating itself over and over. And if you use your position in the turn order to just keep your position in the turn order, instead of grabbing the good actions while you can, you lose. (OK, some new players did pretty much this at least one game; and never tried it a second time. The old staples of loco and Urbanize are ignored at your peril).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chester
United States
Temple
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Roliander wrote:
Richard, did you ever notice a cycle pattern occurring like:

Turn 4
Player A: Chooses Turn Order
Player B: Chooses First Move
Players C - E: Choose others

Turn 5
Player A: Chooses First Move
Player B: Chooses Turn Order
Players C-E: Choose Others

Turn 6
Player B: Chooses First Move
Player A: Chooses Turn Order
Players C-E: Choose Others

And so on..

Maybe I am, as you say, putting to much importance on being first to move cubes. Maybe there are always other pressing issues. But it just seems a bit too easy for two players to dominate First Move. But perhaps they would both lose doing this...

You can't ship a cube if you're deferring a turn to upgrade your locomotive....wherever you are in the turn order. First Move and Turn Order are not the two strongest actions and if two players did was you suggest, I'd love to be the third player in their game. I'd expect to clean house.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Andersen
Denmark
Valby
Danmark
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So...

What are the numbers for? Do they serve any purpose rules wise?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randall Bart
United States
Winnetka
California
flag msg tools
designer
Baseball been bery bery good to me
badge
This is a picture of a published game designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
simombo wrote:
So...

What are the numbers for? Do they serve any purpose rules wise?

The numbers are for the Basic game only.

clearclaw wrote:
Locomotive remains the most valuable action in the game. Karl's spreadsheet work for Age of Steam remains mostly valid for Steam, or you can do the arithmetic yourself.

On the first couple turns it is, but then Urbanize surpasses it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Gander
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
On the first couple turns it is, but then Urbanize surpasses it.

If you're playing the Base Game it's often not a good choice as the first move. It costs 6 - if you were only going to deliver a cube one link as one of your two deliveries then you'd do better upgrading instead of shipping that cube.

Of course, that ignores the possibility of wanting to stop someone else delivering that cube...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.