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Subject: Throne Room + Library rss

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Robert Demian Whitworth
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Hello all - While playing last night my buddy tried this combo but I called foul because the wording on the library card seemed to prohibit the possession of 14 cards in your hand. Is this correct, or can you by playing the library card twice get 14 cards in your hand? Thanks.
 
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Jeff Goris
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The Library says to draw to 7 cards in hand. After playing the first library, you will already have 7 cards in your hand so the second library (from the use of the Throne Room) has no effect.
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Matthew M
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verandi wrote:
You are right. In effect, there is no difference between Throne Room + Library and just Library


Not quite true... Throne Room + Library will allow you to draw one extra card compared to just Library...a card to replace the spot that was taken by the Throne Room.

-MMM
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Peter Stein
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You've already replaced the Throne Room when you refilled your hand to 7.
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Ted Vessenes
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Bordgamer wrote:
You've already replaced the Throne Room when you refilled your hand to 7.


Not if you didn't play the throne room. Then you are stuck with a throne room rather than a different card from your deck. Strategically it's no different from playing a cellar for zero cards, just to draw one more card with the Library, and often a good idea.
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Carc >> BSG
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Yeah, the Throne Room (my favorite card) is good to double almost anything... the Library being one of those exceptions. However, playing the Throne Room/Library means that instead of getting 3 new cards in your hand you're getting 4 new cards (since you've created a slot by playing Throne Room.) So it's not as pointless as a Throne Roomed Chapel.
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Peter Stein
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tedv wrote:
Bordgamer wrote:
You've already replaced the Throne Room when you refilled your hand to 7.


Not if you didn't play the throne room. Then you are stuck with a throne room rather than a different card from your deck. Strategically it's no different from playing a cellar for zero cards, just to draw one more card with the Library, and often a good idea.


Got it!
 
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Steve Zamborsky
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ejcarter wrote:
Yeah, the Throne Room (my favorite card) is good to double almost anything... the Library being one of those exceptions. However, playing the Throne Room/Library means that instead of getting 3 new cards in your hand you're getting 4 new cards (since you've created a slot by playing Throne Room.) So it's not as pointless as a Throne Roomed Chapel.


Stop leaking my secret (losing) strategies!
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Andrew Snyder
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technically, if you set aside enough action cards during the resolution of the first library that your hand didn't go up to 7 cards you would get a second pass at them.
You would only do this if you couldn't remember which action cards you wanted to draw, or something like that.
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Matthew M
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Andrew Snyder wrote:
technically, if you set aside enough action cards during the resolution of the first library that your hand didn't go up to 7 cards you would get a second pass at them.
You would only do this if you couldn't remember which action cards you wanted to draw, or something like that.


I'm not following what you are saying. The discussion to now hasn't been about setting aside cards drawn using the Library...it's been about playing additional cards before playing the Library to increase the total number of cards that you get to keep from the Library draw.

-MMM
 
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Adam Smiles
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Andrew Snyder wrote:
technically, if you set aside enough action cards during the resolution of the first library that your hand didn't go up to 7 cards you would get a second pass at them.
You would only do this if you couldn't remember which action cards you wanted to draw, or something like that.


Technically, you are wrong. You NEVER get a second crack at action cards that you have declined to put into your hand. If your deck/discard pile runs out before you reach 7 cards, then you'll have less than 7 cards in your hand.

Text on Library card wrote:
Draw until you have 7 cards in hand. You may set aside any Action cards drawn this way, as you draw them; discard the set aside cards after you finish drawing.


 
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Paul King
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No, I see what he's saying, He means that Throne Room would give a second pass. You use the first Library, setting aside all the Action Cards. Then they are discarded. Then if you don't have 7 cards you can use the 2nd Library (from Throne Room) for another pass over those cards.

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Ian Klinck
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asmiles wrote:
Andrew Snyder wrote:
technically, if you set aside enough action cards during the resolution of the first library that your hand didn't go up to 7 cards you would get a second pass at them.
You would only do this if you couldn't remember which action cards you wanted to draw, or something like that.


Technically, you are wrong. You NEVER get a second crack at action cards that you have declined to put into your hand. If your deck/discard pile runs out before you reach 7 cards, then you'll have less than 7 cards in your hand.

Text on Library card wrote:
Draw until you have 7 cards in hand. You may set aside any Action cards drawn this way, as you draw them; discard the set aside cards after you finish drawing.




But if you play Throne Room/Library, then the cards go into the discard pile after the first Library, and you get another shot at drawing through them with the second Library. A very unusual circumstance, indeed. (You'd have to have less than 7 total treasure & victory cards in your deck, for starters...)
 
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Adam Smiles
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Well, that's what I get for reading too quickly. Although getting a second look at action cards only helps you if you have an action to use after you library. Which means you're now in the discussion of village/festival/throne room followed by throne room-library.
 
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tim
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asmiles wrote:

Technically, you are wrong. You NEVER get a second crack at action cards that you have declined to put into your hand. If your deck/discard pile runs out before you reach 7 cards, then you'll have less than 7 cards in your hand.

I believe your wrong here. When the library gets played the second time and you have no cards to draw you would shuffle the discard pile and draw cards. You don't get to do that if you run out of cards while drawing but you would the second time you played it.

This wouldn't come up because if you had 4 cards to draw and 4 cards left you wouldn't set any aside.
 
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Adrian George
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The slant this has taken suggests to me that i've been playing library wrong. It was my understanding that the ones you set aside didn't count against getting to 7 in hand. Am i wrong? Because the card is much weaker if i am, and the setting aside would be pointless, since you have to discard them at end of turn any way.
 
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Dave G
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georgeofjungle3 wrote:
The slant this has taken suggests to me that i've been playing library wrong. It was my understanding that the ones you set aside didn't count against getting to 7 in hand. Am i wrong? Because the card is much weaker if i am, and the setting aside would be pointless, since you have to discard them at end of turn any way.


No, you're playing it right. The discussion is whether those cards go back into your discard after the first library so that when you use your library again on the throne room you would get a second chance to pull one into your hand. And as Adam mentioned again, for that to even be a factor you're now talking about festival/village & throne room/library.
 
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David desJardins
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someotherguy wrote:
There is no way to get a second "pass" as the set aside cards by using Throne Room and Library. Once you have played you cards your hand is at a certain size (let's say three cards), you draw up to seven cards, possibly setting aside some cards.


You're wrong. You do get a second pass if you go through your entire deck and discards and you still don't make it up to seven cards. Then you can use the second Library to go through the previously set-aside cards again, possibly taking some of them into your hand.

This is rare because usually you have more cards in your deck than you need to get up to seven cards, even if you set aside all action cards. But it's not impossible.
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Adam Smiles
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someotherguy wrote:
There is no way to get a second "pass" as the set aside cards by using Throne Room and Library. Once you have played you cards your hand is at a certain size (let's say three cards), you draw up to seven cards, possibly setting aside some cards. As part of the first use of the Library, these set aside cards would go to your discard pile. Now you can use the Library a second time, but you are already at seven cards, so you have no chance to draw any cards for any reason, so there is no chance that you would be shuffling your discards to draw from them.


Let's say you hand is Throne Room, Library and 3 other cards (doesn't matter what they are). The contents are of your draw deck and discard pile contain 3 or fewer treasure and victory point cards (you've been very busy with your chapel and/or remodeling). You play Throne Room and then Library. You set aside every action card you draw until your hand is now your 3 starting card plus 0-3 treasure/VP cards. Your draw deck and discard pile are empty and you have fewer then 7 cards. You now discard all of those set aside action cards and play your second instance of the Library (via Throne Room). You now can go through you deck a second time keeping which ever action card(s) until you reach 7.

So while it is possible to keep cards from a "second pass", it is not very common. And even if it does happen, the situations where those kept action cards are useful is even more rare.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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It could easily come up if your hand started with 3 Coppers, a Village, and a Library. Clearly you'd play the Village first, which may cause you to draw the Throne Room. Now you have a chance to play Throne Room + Library and still play one more Action card afterwards. That way, when making your repeat sweep thru your cards (now only Action cards), you can freely pick which one to include in your deck.

In addition to Chapels and Remodels, your deck can become this thin from playing Moneylenders or being hit by Thieves.

As far as strategy, Throne Room + Library is a bad choice. When it comes up with nothing better to do (like Throne Room, Festival, Library) then it is a good way to make room for another card, but that's not actually strategy.

For that matter, Throne Room + Chapel may have merit, if you've drawn up a huge hand and have more than 4 cards that you'd like to drop from your deck.

Oh it is so hard to keep in mind all of the things that might occur in a game of Dominion ... and that's why the game is awesome.
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Robert Demian Whitworth
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Well maybe I'm missing something here but it seems to me that the second use of the library (due to the Throne Room) isn't necessary in the case where you both run out of cards in your draw pile and still haven't met the seven card hand limit. Wouldn't you just simply throw any set aside action cards in with any discarded cards from previous turns and then shuffle them up thereby making a 'new' draw pile and then continue drawing until you reach the seven card limit? Why is a second use of the library even needed for another "pass" through the deck? And to add to this, it would seem that the likelyhood of shuffling up a new draw pile would be more the case if you played the library when you only had a few cards left in your draw pile. If you still have a full stack left then chances are you're probably going to get to the seven card limit before exhausting the deck by drawing up VP and money cards.

BTW - Thanks to all who responded to my original post. As always I get more than I ask for - (but that's a good thing!)
 
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David desJardins
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infoflow wrote:
Wouldn't you just simply throw any set aside action cards in with any discarded cards from previous turns and then shuffle them up thereby making a 'new' draw pile and then continue drawing until you reach the seven card limit?


No. If you have "set aside" cards then you don't shuffle them with your discards when you reshuffle. That's the whole reason that the rules say to set them aside rather than just putting them in your discard pile. If you were going to add them to the discard pile when you reshuffle, you might as well just put them there directly.
 
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Andrew Snyder
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Yes, I was talking about the resolution of the second library effect as a result of the throne room. As others have observed, this could only happen if no more than 6 cards in your deck were coins or VP.
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Mike Stevens
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I just got the game on Saturday and have already played about 30 games. What a GREAT, ADDICTIVE, game! Please take a second and let me know if we are playing a single Library card correctly.

After you play Library as your action card, you get to draw until you have 7 cards in your hand, you MAY set aside any ACTION cards until you fill your hand with 7 cards.

What are you supposed to do with the ACTION cards that you SET ASIDE? Do they go in your dicard pile or back in your deck. We have been playing that they go in the discard pile once you have your 7 cards in your hand. Is this the correct way to play the Library card?

Thanks for you help. Sorry one more question while I have you. If you have 3 buys and 6 coins at the end of your turn, can you buy 1 gold and then take 2 copper for your extra buys?
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Bill Barksdale
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Omahavice wrote:
I just got the game on Saturday and have already played about 30 games. What a GREAT, ADDICTIVE, game! Please take a second and let me know if we are playing a single Library card correctly.

After you play Library as your action card, you get to draw until you have 7 cards in your hand, you MAY set aside any ACTION cards until you fill your hand with 7 cards.

What are you supposed to do with the ACTION cards that you SET ASIDE? Do they go in your dicard pile or back in your deck. We have been playing that they go in the discard pile once you have your 7 cards in your hand. Is this the correct way to play the Library card?

Thanks for you help. Sorry one more question while I have you. If you have 3 buys and 6 coins at the end of your turn, can you buy 1 gold and then take 2 copper for your extra buys?


Yes and yes.
 
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