Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
23 Posts

Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » General

Subject: how much cover do you recieve in this situation? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Taylor Liss
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In the following picture, I am a little confused. If someone had to make a fire attack roll against the troops inside the building, how much cover (maximally) would they receive? I'm unsure if it would only be 5 (for just the pillbox) or 9 (3 for the building + 1 for the hedge + 5 for the pillbox). Which is correct?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Stai

California
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
5 for the pillbox...cover from different sources are not cumulative
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taylor Liss
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tallguy2241 wrote:
5 for the pillbox...cover from different sources are not cumulative


so no matter what, you only get defense from one object on a hex? (you would never get 5 from the pillbox + from the hedge?)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Correct, cover is never cumulative. The only quasi-exception to that is a road reduces whatever other cover is present, so it's a "cumulative -1 cover", if you want to think of it that way.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taylor Liss
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
Correct, cover is never cumulative. The only quasi-exception to that is a road reduces whatever other cover is present, so it's a "cumulative -1 cover", if you want to think of it that way.


ok! thank you so much! this straightens alot of things out!

EDIT: What about if there is a smoke inbetween the attaker and target?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Smoke is a hindrance, but has no effect on cover. The two are completely separate. Hindrances reduce the attacker's firepower (among other effects). Cover increases the defender's morale.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taylor Liss
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
Smoke is a hindrance, but has no effect on cover. The two are completely separate. Hindrances reduce the attacker's firepower (among other effects). Cover increases the defender's morale.


I always thought decreasing firepower and increasing morale were one in the same. What's the difference?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
When the attacker fires, you add his dice roll to his firepower (which may have been modified by hindrance). Then the defender adds his dice roll to his morale (which may have been modified by cover). Then you compare those two totals. Hindrance and cover play two completely separate roles in the process, although of course both have the effect of making the defender harder to hit.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taylor Liss
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
When the attacker fires, you add his dice roll to his firepower (which may have been modified by hindrance). Then the defender adds his dice roll to his morale (which may have been modified by cover). Then you compare those two totals. Hindrance and cover play two completely separate roles in the process, although of course both have the effect of making the defender harder to hit.


Ok - I think I get it now!

Attaker's total = FP plus dice roll minus hinderances
Defender's total = Morale plus dice roll plus cover

AT > DT = Defender breaks

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Samort7 wrote:
Attaker's total = FP plus dice roll minus hinderances
Defender's total = Morale plus dice roll plus cover


It's partly a matter of semantics, but it's actually important in some cases:

Hindrances reduce FP, they aren't subtracted separately from the total.

Cover increases morale, it isn't added separately to the total.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taylor Liss
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
Samort7 wrote:
Attaker's total = FP plus dice roll minus hinderances
Defender's total = Morale plus dice roll plus cover


It's partly a matter of semantics, but it's actually important in some cases:

Hindrances reduce FP, they aren't subtracted separately from the total.

Cover increases morale, it isn't added separately to the total.


Makes sense. In regards to my original question - isn't a hedge considered a hinderance in the pictured scenario? (If someone were in G3 firing at the forces in F4?)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A hedge is not a hindrance. If you look at the terrain chart (or in the rules) you will see that a hedge has three effects: (1) increased movement cost to cross, (2) blocks LOS under certain circumstances; (3) provides cover under certain circumstances.

If the hedge were replaced by a fence, then a fence can be a hindrance, but if you consult the rules or terrain chart you will see that a fence is not a hindrance if it is adjacent to either the firing piece or the target, so that wouldn't apply in this case either.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taylor Liss
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
a fence is not a hindrance if it is adjacent to either the firing piece or the target


that goes for walls and hedges too.

I think I figured out what my confusion was. There are four categories of modifiers that need to be thought about when firing. They are Hindrances, Cover, and Walls/Hedges/Fences and Roads/Railways. I thought that Walls/Hedges/Fences counted as hindrances. THAT was my mistake.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Rossney
United States
San Francisco
California [CA]
flag msg tools
Avatar
It's also important to remember that cover increases morale in all situations, not just during combat. Anything that you ever use morale for (e.g. recovery, rout), a unit's morale is modified by the highest cover value in the hex.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Ruzzo
United States
Manchester
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It is also important to remember the difference (and not just lump hindrance in as additional cover) because some events/actions specifically work on either firepower or cover, and some both.

For example, the "concealment" action modifies the attackers total firepower (after all hindrances and dice are accounted for) by the amount of cover in the hex. If you simply lumped hindrance in as part of cover, it would cause this card to play improperly.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ethan McKinney
United States
El Segundo
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
UhhhClem wrote:
It's also important to remember that cover increases morale in all situations, not just during combat. Anything that you ever use morale for (e.g. recovery, rout), a unit's morale is modified by the highest cover value in the hex.


"in the hex" is the critical bit here. You can't use a hexside feature (a wall or hedge or whatever) to improve your morale for recovery or rout.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taylor Liss
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
elbmc1969 wrote:
UhhhClem wrote:
It's also important to remember that cover increases morale in all situations, not just during combat. Anything that you ever use morale for (e.g. recovery, rout), a unit's morale is modified by the highest cover value in the hex.


"in the hex" is the critical bit here. You can't use a hexside feature (a wall or hedge or whatever) to improve your morale for recovery or rout.


wow, this is a major point that I think I've been oblivious to. Thanks!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Meng Tan
Australia
Bridgeman Downs
Queensland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
UhhhClem wrote:
It's also important to remember that cover increases morale in all situations, not just during combat. Anything that you ever use morale for (e.g. recovery, rout), a unit's morale is modified by the highest cover value in the hex.

Not quite true. Rule T78.3 says you can choose which cover value to use. Most frequently, you will choose to use the highest value. If Routing, you may wish not to!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taylor Liss
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
meng wrote:
UhhhClem wrote:
It's also important to remember that cover increases morale in all situations, not just during combat. Anything that you ever use morale for (e.g. recovery, rout), a unit's morale is modified by the highest cover value in the hex.

Not quite true. Rule T78.3 says you can choose which cover value to use. Most frequently, you will choose to use the highest value. If Routing, you may wish not to!


Does the person who issued the rout command get to choose what cover is applied? It's not up to the inactive player?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Pardoe
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
The player controlling the units decides which cover to apply when routing.

But the instances of multiple covers in a hex are relatively few.

Hex with a fortification - use either the hex cover or the fortification cover.

Hex with hexside feature - use the hex or the hexside feature (only if on the hexside of the target hex and the shot crossed the feature.)

It is NOT as if each hex in CC has multiple covers. Each hex will have a single terrain type defining it, hence one cover (outside of the examples above).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taylor Liss
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RPardoe wrote:
The player controlling the units decides which cover to apply when routing.

But the instances of multiple covers in a hex are relatively few.

Hex with a fortification - use either the hex cover or the fortification cover.

Hex with hexside feature - use the hex or the hexside feature (only if on the hexside of the target hex and the shot crossed the feature.)

It is NOT as if each hex in CC has multiple covers. Each hex will have a single terrain type defining it, hence one cover (outside of the examples above).


Ok, another question then - When you are shooting at an enemy through a hindrance and the hindrance reduces your FP to 0 or less, the shot cannot be made. This rule as far as I can tell does not apply for Ordinance weapons. However - does it apply for the targeting of ordinances (or the targeting of an artillery request for that matter?)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Pardoe
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
The hindrance is a modifier on the targeting/accuracy roll. In effect, it doesn't reduce the needed targeting/accuracy roll result. If anything it increases the number required.

For example, if you were firing at Range 4 through 9 Smoke, you would need to roll such that the product of the two dice is 14 or more. (Die product is 14 - 9 for hindrance = 5 or hit. Alternative (yet equivalent math) is Range 4 + 9 for hindrance is 13, so need a product of 14 or more.

And always a chance to hit as the greatest range on the map is 15 hexes through the greatest 10 smoke hindrance. Rolls of 5-6, 6-5, or 6-6 will all hit.

But if the result is less than the range to the target, it is a miss and follows the appropriate results. Ordnance does nothing further. Artillery will drift per O18.2.2.2
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Taylor Liss
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RPardoe wrote:
The hindrance is a modifier on the targeting/accuracy roll. In effect, it doesn't reduce the needed targeting/accuracy roll result. If anything it increases the number required.


oooooh ok. I see now. Thanks again :-)

You guys have all been very helpful!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.