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Subject: Class system campaign mod rss

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Ruin Shatterhouse Prime, the Third.
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A couple of friends and I are working on this idea. I've played the game and read the rules enough to have figured out that the real difficulty of Doom, more than the difficulty level itself(normal/nightmare,etc.), is actually rooted in the marine cards each player starts with. Lithe+Prepared = can't win. KillerInstinct + GroundAssault = can't lose.

The idea is to give the Marine players a measure of control over what cards they start with, without letting them outright choose their unbeatable preferred combos. So far we've split up the 28 total cards into 7 'classes' of 4 cards each. The 4 are grouped to increase the chances of getting combos that make weak cards good (Tactician+Medic) and to avoid combos that make strong cards too good(K.I.+G.A.)

For fun and sense, we've tried to group them on common themes, too(Scout+Recon, Sniper+Marksman, etc.)

Most of our ideas are still open to debate and playtesting. Here're the basics:
Each player picks one of the starting classes for his marine.
The player's starting cards are drawn only from the cards assigned to that class.

That's about all we've decided. Here're the rest of our ideas:

*****************
***The Classes***
*****************
((until we change them again))

Sniper: arrrh
Sniper, PerfectAim, Marksman, EfficientKiller
--Ranged Gun-theme. Pretty balanced. Any two make a good but not amazing starter set. All four combined make for a real accurate player who can't run out of bullets.

Grunt: robot
BigGuy, Tough, SpecialOps, FrontGuard
--The most melee-oriented, with a potential +3 damage and knockback on his fist. Tag-team the mancubus and knock 'im back into your chainsaw-wielding buddy! There's no bad combo with these four -- extra damage, multiple attacks, either/or, both, armor.

Commando: cool
Assassin, CrackShot, Marksman, KillerInstinct
--One of my goals with the classes was to avoid pairing KillerInstinct with anything that makes it too powerful.(SpecOps, G-Assault, FrontGuard, most things). Here we have a fairly careful, defensive, long-range player who is likely to need killer instinct just to remain mobile. I like to think of aim-shoot with the assassin card as pumping a round into a shotgun. *chk* *BOOM* crackshot around the corner. Like in the movies. And if nothing died, stay hidden.

Staff Sergeant: surprise
Medic, Officer, Tactician, Careful
--Stacked a couple of everyone's favorites on top of Medic to make this class more agreeable. Tactician+Medic lets you heal yourself while moving and shooting, making this starting combo real hard to frag. This guy's real powerful in a solo campaign with any 3 starter cards, but has the potential to suck in team play with only 2 drawn randomly.

Assault Marine: angry
SpecialOps, GroundAssault, Lean&Mean, SurvivalOps
--The guy nobody wants to go near. First the invaders have to endure the same attacks of opportunity they've been harassing you with, and then when they don't kill you because you've got +3 base health they have to watch you whip out GroundAssault and do your best impersonation of V from V for Vendetta in the subway with his knives after he just got blasted with like eighty machine guns.
Lean&Mean wound up here. I personally think Lean&Mean is best when paired with Scout because of Scout's free dodge order when sprinting, but putting it there caused too much shuffling of cards among the other classes. Special Ops enhances Lean&Mean pretty well, seeing how you're likely to be swinging a chainsaw when you activate the watchful ability.

Toolbox:
TechOps, Prepared, Alert, SurvivalOps
--Alert is probably my favorite card. Move, shoot, free guard token with Aim bonus? Yes please. Hope you're lucky enough to start with it 'cuz the other three aren't that great. I put Prepared in here because I had a funny image in my head of a TechOp guy standing by a door straining so hard to keep it shut against the invaders, only to have it be 'smashed', and then whip out a cancel token as if he actually barricaded it and added C4 for good measure.

SEAL: ninja
Scout, Recon, DangerSense, Lithe
--Speed and stealth are underrated in most of the other games I play, so I like to really stack them up sometimes to show that they have a place. I think it works in this case. Imagine starting a solo campaign with the ability to move 12 spaces over and/or through any monsters and/or obstacles, without fear of being bit in half by any demon dogs when doing so, and then getting a free dodge token afterwards. Oh, and no invaders can spawn within 4 spaces of you, even if it's right behind the door you just shut to keep the dog from biting your ass off after cartwheeling over its back two seconds ago. Scout/Recon/DangerSense could clear the first scenario in like 10 turns and 0 frags.

Lithe wound up here. It fits in with the class's complete freedom of movement theme, but I think Lithe is at its best when combined with Front Guard or Ground Assault, (and obviously Killer Instinct) with which it could be used to drop grenades in 3 or 4 completely different areas of the map. Might want to rethink choosing this class if you're only starting with 2 cards. DangerSense+Lithe could easily be the most useless guy on your team.


That's what we've got for classes planned so far.
So you draw however many starter cards from the chosen set of 4. When you level up(purchase new marine card with kill points), draw from the ones that are left. If there aren't any left, draw a random one from the pool of those classes that aren't being played.

Which brings us to:

****************
***LevelingUp***
****************

Normally extra marine cards can be purchased between scenarios for (65 or 75?) kill points. The problem with that is that some classes kill much faster than others and will naturally be getting way more kill points, leveling up faster, and then getting even more kill points than SEAL or the guy-who-could've-scored-Alert-but-didn't, especially. A couple ideas to balance it out:

1.) Share kills between all players. If AssaultGuy scores 100 kills while Medic only gets 30, that's 65 for each and they both get a new card. I like this because it encourages cooperation during the campaign instead of competition for kill points.

and/or

2.) Reduce the price of leveling up based on the number of frags. Instead of a flat-rate 65 points per card, you can reward the players who get out quick by giving them a discount if they only got fragged a couple times. Example:
6 frags: no discount
5 frags: -10(55 points per card)
4 frags: -20
3 frags: -30
2 frags: -40
1 frag: -50
0 frags: -60 (5 points for a card)

Now obviously spending 5 points for a new marine card is ridiculous, but when was the last time you saw anyone or heard any rumors of a player finishing DOOM without getting fragged? There's no god mode in the board game. SEAL might be able to pull it off, which would be cool because it'd be like 'stealth' experience for the stealth player who, at zero frags, probably wouldn't have 5 kill points to spend anyway.


And speaking of frags:

******************
***Respawning!!***
******************

How are we going to handle respawning? It was suggested that we don't respawn, and instead have to revive our team buddies a-la-Army of Two. Personally, I think the Doom board game NEEDs respawning because it's really one of the Marines' only advantages, and seeing how you have to die to make use of it, it's obviously not too too powerful.

One of my better answers: The class system! Maybe something like this:

Marine dies. Marine does not respawn. Armor tokens are gone. Marine cards are gone. Weapons and ammo fall to the ground right there. Other players can pick them up and proceed, opening up the next door to an unrevealed area and *BAM* a fresh marine with new cards.(after all, why would this place's entire military roster consist of just you bums?) I like this idea because it amounts to finding new companions as you proceed through the game, but death is still pretty serious 'cuz any bonus cards or armor tokens you bought are gone forever. This limits the number of respawns to the number of unvisited rooms, so it's only 'game over' if the Invader can kill off all the marine players before the last one left alive can make it to the door. It also gives the surviving marines a difficult choice: make a mad dash for the exit everymanforhimself, or go exploring, possibly backtracking a great distance, to bring another player back into the game. And the GM can add narration to explain why that guy was hiding in the closet with the yellow keycard.

We could possibly combine this with the Army-of-Two revive. It'd probably be more favorable for the dead marine to be revived if possible(say, within 2 turns) and not have the player forfeit his current, possibly very good marine cards for a couple random ones on some new marine.

It occurred to me as I was writing this that it resembles the revive/respawn mechanics of Left4Dead. Nuts. Not that that's bad, but I thought I was being original...

****************************
***Reviving a dead marine***
****************************

1.) The Medic can ready a heal order to recover 1 wound for the guy.

2.) Marine A can use an adrenaline token on an incapacitated Marine B
(where A != B) to heal 3 wounds. The healing effect of adrenaline can only be used on incapacitated marines. We can debate whether or not to also give them the speed boost when they get up, screaming and foaming at the mouth. I like this because adrenaline tokens are rare anyway, and this makes the rare thing really useful.

Making this healing effect temporary(dying again in X turns unless finding a health pack, etc.) would be more realistic, but I'd rather it be permanent for the following reasons: A.) Adrenaline is rare anyway. B.) Doom is fast-paced enough that adrenaline from 'reality' could last a very significant number of turns and it sucks keeping track of all that. C.) The marine really could be knocked out, but not necessarily bleeding out, so it just brings the guy back feeling good enough.

3.) Get the incapacitated marine to a health pack. I don't think health packs should be portable -- that's what the rare adrenaline tokens are for, and then any marine would be able to heal himself at almost any time. Dying marines should have to be carried/dragged over to any health packs to be revived with 3 wounds. It makes a medic more valuable because he's a portable healer. [Or if you really want to have some fun you could try using your Big Guy card or Rocket Launcher, make an attack vs. your buddy's corpse, and 'throw' him up to three spaces to a health pack, potentially doing little enough damage to make it worthwhile.]


There are two more rule subsets that need to be covered. "How late is too late" and "carry/drag mechanics" Here I'll branch.

**************************
***Carry/Drag Mechanics***
**************************
Move into the space where the marine got fragged and spend 2 movement points to pick him up.
Move into the space containing a health pack and spend 2 movement points to put him down.

In between, you've got between 80 and 150 kilograms of dying flesh on top of you, so there are restrictions:
1.) You cannot move more than 4 spaces(edit: Per turn) (double edit: Unless you put the guy down during the turn). You can still "sprint" to get extra movement points to spend for picking up, putting down, opening doors, trading guns and ammo, etc. But you can't move more than 4 spaces. Any bonus movement points from adrenaline, Scout, Killer Instinct, or anything I missed, can not be used to exceed the 4 space cap. However, the cap only applies while you're carrying the marine, so if you move 4, score a kill, and activate Killer Instinct, you can use 2 of those move points to put the marine down, move another 2, and attack again instead of standing still and attacking.
2.) You cannot Dodge. You can, however, use Dodge to cancel an opponent's aim ability.
3.) If you take damage from an attack, the guy you're carrying takes the same damage(this would apply to the 'lifeline' damage I'll get into later). Same for airless terrain(if there's not enough oxygen to go around) and all damaging obstacles except the green pools of goo(no damage for the guy being carried over it, unless he gets put down in it, or the guy carrying him gets killed out from under him).
4.) Unloading is unaffected. Even unloading with ground assault.
5.) (the holder of the Big Guy card ignores the following) If you attack, you can only attack with the pistol, grenades, and plasma rifle. We can say everything else needs two hands and/or a measure of care(chainsaw). Fist is debatable. I think that if you've got another person on top of you already you're probably not going to be able to swing hard enough to get through any armored infernal beasts, or even hit agile spiders or flying faerie fetuses. This also gives the plasma rifle a niche, because it tends to suck in normal combat, what with its standard 30% miss rate and high ammo consumption.
6.)Two options regarding equipment. The player who got knocked out chooses which one, for that K.O. only, and at that instant.
6.a.) Any specified equipment(except for armor and the Efficient Killer's 'final bullet') in any quantity available drops in the marine's space and can be picked up by other following marines. So this is basically trading items but instead of spending movement, it's death. Default if unspecified is that nothing drops, for simplicity.
6.b.) The marine doing the carrying may have access to either 1.)ALL the dying marine's equipment while carrying him, or 2.) NONE of the equipment may be used. You can't say "grenades are fine but don't touch my power cell ammo". If he says you can't use any of his stuff and he has an adrenaline token, just leave him to die and make best friends with his replacement. Default if unspecified is "ALL". If you forgot to specify, no objections. You're unconscious.
6.-corollary) If the dying marine actually dies for real, all his equipment(except armor and the Efficient Killer's final bullet) immediately drop in that space. This could be quite a stack. If you really want to, everyone can let the items scatter somehow(either always, or only in case of frag-by-blast) or let the invader scatter them up to X spaces. But you shouldn't go overboard on the realism and make this stuff too complicated. I don't want to hear any reports of players citing "Class System Campaign Mod version 2, subsection 5, "Carry/Drag Mechanics", article 6 corollary, lines 4-5" to demand that the BFG scatters into or out of the green goo or flame jet spaces. It's a board game, damnit.

That's all I could think of for that now. Moving on...


**********************************************
***How late is too late to revive my buddy?***
**********************************************

One possibility: When his lifeline runs out! Marines have a 'lifeline' equal to their base wound count. When the wounds run out, it's down to the lifeline. Invaders can continue attacking the fallen marine, doing damage to his lifeline. So it's basically, "two kills in a row without any healing == PermaFrag", but potentially "way more than two kills to kill for real".
**Need discussion on whether the lifeline should be able to be restored or not, and when or how.

Another possibility: Every revival reduces the marine's maximum wounds by say... three. This can vary by difficulty level from 1 to 5. So you started with 9 wounds, got killed to 0, got revived to 3, healed again later up to 6, but can never be healed above 6. Ever. And if you die/revive again it's 3 max. So on 'easy' you could die a dozen times before having to respawn with a newer, weaker marine, but on 'nightmare' you'd only get one barely-worth-it revival.

So how late is really too late? Neither option has a set time limit and I don't recommend having to keep track of 'bleed-out-time-until-death'.

If you go with option 1, then the time limit is 'until he's eaten'.
If you go with option 2, there's also no time limit, but the other marines could weigh their desire to survive against the risk of trying to revive a dude with an HP cap of 3 and leave you to rot.

It might also be good to try some kind of combo on these.


*******************
***Miscellaneous***
*******************

I think berserk tokens should be GodMode tokens. No more one-punch kills, but instead you get invincibility and unlimited ammo for the turn you pick it up and the next two turns. It usually works out that berserk tokens are only useful in regular play if you have Scout, FrontGuard, and KillerInstinct all rolled into one. Also, we're dealing with permanent death here. Three turns of not being able to damage just one marine is not so much to ask.

Update: Tried this out in scenario 2, which has 2 berserk tokens. Treating these like GodMode tokens is the most fun anyone has ever had or will ever have in a board game. You can charge up to zombie and hit it in the face with some rockets, then use knockback to rocket-jump yourself 3 more spaces. Or run into a small room packed full of demons, shut the door behind you, and suicide bomb everybody with grenades dropped at your feet. It makes it better for taking out big packs because you can mow them down with impunity, not caring about ammo or anything else, but it takes a couple rounds to go through the big guys that would normally be dropped by instakill punches. So there's a small tradeoff. GodMode is more powerful overall and also a lot more fun.

On the other hand, Invincibility is too much of a buzzkill for the invader player. It might be better to give the GodMode player some temporary bonus health from which damage is subtracted first. Maybe as many as 20, which you won't think is that many after a single charging/raging maggot drops 11 of them in one turn.


*************************
***Illegal card combos***
*************************

Recommended card combinations that should be redrawn if a player levels up enough to be able to pull from the pool of unused classes. Everybody drools over GroundAssault+KillerInstinct. Those two cards together are better than most other sets of 4. They're clearly overpowered, so it's good to vote to ban them if they ever come up(unless you're playing on Nightmare, in which case I strongly urge you to hand pick them). However, with the class system, the first chance anybody has to score the GA+KI combo (GAKI? KIGA?) is when they level up to their fifth card. Since the classes are internally synergized well enough that said gamebreaker combo wouldn't add that much, really. Example: One class is guaranteed to get KillerInstinct on or before their 4th card. Let's say the 5th card ends up being GroundAssault. The player rejoices, and scans his hand to see how powerful he is:

KillerInstinct(bonus move, bonus shoot after a kill)
Ground Assault(move and shoot x3 when unloading)
Assassin (+3 damage when Aimed)
Marksman (+3 range on yellow dice)
CrackShot (versatile line of sight and, I think, slight range bonus when using it)

If you look at these five cards, you see that the fine print kills the buzz.

Assassin requires an Aim order to be readied. GroundAssault requires you to unload. So you can't ready the aim and unload in the same turn - you have to set it up the turn before(or have Tactician to do it. But that's teamwork, not OneManArmy) and then you're very likely to lose the order from being hit before your next turn comes up, and even then it's good for only one of the 4 shots you're hoping to score. This class also has no other source of bonus damage. There's no Officer,EfficientKiller, or either SpecialOps card here. So the addition of GroundAssault to the only class guaranteed to get KillerInstinct actually nerfs the damage in a way.

Having said that, these are a couple classes that I think could become way too powerful upon drawing their fifth card:

__________________________________
|Card Drawn -- Classes that are largely untouchable after
__________________________________
1.) KillerInstinct -- Grunt, AssaultMarine
2.) 2nd SpecialOps -- Grunt, AssaultMarine
3.) Careful -- AssaultMarine

Those're the most powerful I could think of.(Open for debate to expand the table)
Here's how it gets out of hand:

**Grunt + KillerInstinct = Move 8 spaces and attack 3 times , assuming you kill something, which you will, with +2 damage on all red dice attacks (+3 on fist and knockback). And +1 armor.

**AssaultMarine + KillerInstinct = Move 6 spaces and attack 4 times, assuming you kill something, which you will. (standard KI/GA combo, but with +2 damage on red dice). And +3 health. Pretty much ignores Lean&Mean's existence altogether.

**2 SpecialOps cards = 1 Chainsaw hit instantly kills all adjacent invaders that take up less than 4 spaces. Grunt and AssaultMarine both get to move and swing it 3+ times per turn. That's when the Cyberdemon executed an abrupt about-face and charged in the opposite direction.

**AssaultMarine + Careful. This one's debatable regarding how broken it is. Make no mistake, giving Careful to the AssaultMarine might be as dangerous as you can get in the whole class system because it links GroundAssault with Lean&Mean on top of his health and damage bonuses. I'm not sure if this is 'broken' so much as the other two, though. There are two significant weaknesses:
1.) If he moves more than 2 spaces, he's got nothing. All these bonuses kick in only when he unloads. Advancing that slowly = TimeFrags and all the worst invader card combos at least twice each.

2.) This guy only maxes out his attacks if the Invader's tactics never change. If the Invader's smart he's far from unstoppable.

Then again, if you score any of the combinations in this list, you're lucky enough to get the right cards, lucky enough to bank enough kill points for that many cards after spending them to buy X ammo per level + Y health packs per level, lucky enough to not have had your marine PermaFragged(tm) and replaced at any point in a *Doom Campaign*, and are probably just entering the very last level of said campaign, so don't let me tell you not to use it. Fire away.

*Also note: Not sure if this labyrinth of text has this yet: When a marine player levels up and draws his 5th, 6th, 7th, etc. cards, those cards come from a shared pool of cards. That pool of cards only has cards that do not belong to any of the classes that are currently in play, even if the other marines have not yet drawn all their class cards. While a class is in play, all his class cards are 'reserved' to be drawn only by him. (This does not necessarily apply if there are duplicates of said card) Therefore, illegal combinations can be 100% avoided if the right classes are in play.

*Fun Note: The single most devastating 5-card combo I came up with was (SpecialOps x2, Officer, EfficientKiller, and KillerInstinct) but this can't possibly appear in the class system until the marine draws his 8th card.

Don't you just wish?

**********************************

So anyway, tell us what you think. I know lots of this stuff only works with at least 2 marine players. Solo players might want to start with 2 marines, or 'meet' a new class along the way.


--Edit: Will continuously update this as long as there's feedback--
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Thomas Fredericks
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I REALLY like where you are going with this.

I think the Class system is very interesting (but I would leave the X-MEN and DC out of it). It definitely humanizes the marines a bit more (instead of them being generic random fighters) and greatly influences tactics.

Here are some variants names for the classes that might fit better with the theme:

Big Guy >> Grunt

TheOneWithKillerInstinct >> Veteran

UsefulMedic >> Staff Sergeant (becomes a commissioned officer once he gains the Officer skill). Instead of healing wounds, you can imagine he is "healing" morale.

Mean Guy >> Assault Marine

I also think that your respawning variant is very intriguing and little more realistic. I will try that rule next time. Maybe marines should alsa be allowed to carry health packs to revive their killed companions.

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Ruin Shatterhouse Prime, the Third.
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[Moved all the stuff that was here up to the original post. I'll keep updating that one as new ideas and suggestions come in.]
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Adam Boudreau
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mrtof wrote:
I REALLY like where you are going with this.

I think the Class system is very interesting (but I would leave the X-MEN and DC out of it). It definitely humanizes the marines a bit more (instead of them being generic random fighters) and greatly influences tactics.

Here are some variants names for the classes that might fit better with the theme:

Big Guy >> Grunt

TheOneWithKillerInstinct >> Veteran

UsefulMedic >> Staff Sergeant (becomes a commissioned officer once he gains the Officer skill). Instead of healing wounds, you can imagine he is "healing" morale.

Mean Guy >> Assault Marine

I also think that your respawning variant is very intriguing and little more realistic. I will try that rule next time. Maybe marines should alsa be allowed to carry health packs to revive their killed companions.


I have actual names for these classes in my session reports. Such as Captain Hewge and Lt. Headshot.

That revival mechanism could be quite similar to Left 4 Dead (to reference a recent game we've played). Of course the marine won't get the "never being healed" achievement in a single campaign! :laugh:
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Adam Boudreau
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As much as you like Batman and Nightcrawler, I'm not sure I want to up the amount of classes we have. I think we should sit down and play with the 4 classes we've fully developed and see where that gets us, then see about adding MORE.

Why? Well, I think the problem lies in my desire to avoid possible illegal combination cards that we talked about. If you have two players playing through a campaign in this mod then that leaves a lot of cards up for purchase and leaves a more likely chance that someone could draw an overpowered combination that maybe we haven't even discovered yet. Whereas with only have 4 classes I think that gives the marines enough cards to draw through an entire campaign scenario between the main set and the expansion pack. Whereas in this mod I know we'd burn through all those cards easily. Although it does bring up the possibility of having more than just 3 marine players, which could be cool... but that sounds like a totally different variant on this variant :p

I was thinking about this earlier. I think what we should do is at the least build up a bit of a modification without overhauling FFG's system first. This way I think it will be more player accessible for other people to play our mod. If that's a success then we can go all out and devise a whole new way to play this game! What do you think?
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Roberto Arbelaez
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I really like the class ideas, but I agree the names need re-thinking.

good job!
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Play Games - Interact - Have Fun!
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You guys are definately people I'd want to play DOOM with.
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Adam Boudreau
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manowarplayer wrote:
You guys are definately people I'd want to play DOOM with.


Too bad you're on the other coast! We could use another player and I'm currently trying to coax my cousin into joining us. Time to try Doom as a gateway game... has all the right themes for him I think.
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Ruin Shatterhouse Prime, the Third.
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Got another one:

*********************************
***Firing blindly into the dark***
*********************************

I was scanning some forums and saw this question come up a few times: "Can we fire our weapons into the dark?" i.e. dark areas of the map, when affected by a Darkness card, or that steam-filled room with the Cyberdemon where you don't have line of sight, but the path of your bullet is not actually obstructed by anything. It seems there is no official rule, so people either make up their own rules or don't allow it.

My rule's the best. It goes like this:

Step 1: Pick one of the 8 directions. (i.e. "North", or just point)
Step 2: Pull the trigger.
Step 3: Add up the range of all the dice and count out that many spaces in whatever direction you fired.
Step 4: The attack hits that space and does the damage you rolled. Blast weapons that land on obstructions don't do anything.

Exceptions: Rolling an X means you miss completely. Blast and seeking weapons scatter as normal. (Note that blast weapons are the only ones that can hit an enemy that stands 'between' your available attack axis)

Addition: If the invaders you're hoping to hit were not previously allowed to move or take action against you, they can do so starting with the Invader's turn, regardless of whether or not any of them got hit. So unless you bust out the BFG with GroundAssault, it's still probably best to try to run past the Cyberdemon. Also, your GM will forever hold the 'Jammed' card for this specific occasion.
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And another idea. Sorry for kicking around so many, but if I don't put them somewhere then I'll spend 3 hours of my Saturday with that feeling where I have this really cool thought right on the tip of my brain but just can't quite get it out.

It feels like the Sniper might be significantly weaker than all the other offensive classes, so I thought up a custom weapon for him. Obviously it's the sniper rifle. You'll recognize it as similar to the plasma rifle:

Dice rolls:
Red, Yellow, Green, Green

Specials: +1 range, +2 damage, maximum 1 shot per turn(only with the sniper rifle. You can pull out other guns if you're unloading), must be fired before moving. Cannot be used to make "CrackShot" attacks.
Uses standard bullet ammo.

Comes standard-issue with all sniper characters. Can be traded, though other classes won't find it too useful.
Hit rate is approx 70% without the Sniper card and an Aim order.
Hit rate is approx 100% with said card and order.
Ammo-burn rate is 75% without EfficientKiller. Correct me if I'm wrong on this because I don't have dice to look at. The red and yellow dice both have 3 sides showing a bullet icon, right?
Ammo-burn rate is 0% with EfficientKiller(obviously that only applies if you're on your last one).

Here's the idea in greater detail beyond 'let's give the sniper a sniper rifle'.

The Sniper doesn't have much going for him. He doesn't get special movement or multiple attacks beyond the standard unload, and his only damage bonus is +1 deadly on bullet weapons. He does, however, have the ability to ignore miss results and doesn't run out of bullet ammo. The sniper rifle caters to this.

1.) It uses bullets, so the EfficientKiller card gives him +1 range and +1 damage. Also, he'll always have that one magic bullet left for it.
2.) It uses both the red and yellow dice. These two have the biggest damage, but also nearly double the chance to miss and double the chance to burn away bullet ammo if anyone else was using it.(should discourage trading it away). So combining red and yellow dice make for an almost de-facto sniper-exclusive weapon.
3.) Specials: +1 range and +2 damage. It's a powerful gun no matter who pulls the trigger, so everyone who carries it will get a damage bonus. It also has a sightscope, so everyone gets a range bonus. But you need the Marksman and EfficientKiller cards to get the most range and damage out of it.
4.) Limitations: Since it can be SO powerful in the right hands (all told, with the Sniper's 4 cards the max damage is 12 and the max range is like...17 or 18 spaces), and it runs on the most common ammo, we need to prevent anyone from going to town with it,(like trading it to a KillerInstinct Marksman Assassin) We limit it to one shot per turn that must be taken before movement. It requires special aim, but not necessarily an aim order. Also because it requires special aim, you can't hold it out around a corner and shoot a-la-CrackShot card.

Also note that the minimum damage this weapon can do on a hit is very low. It's 2. Interestingly it can only do this minimum damage in the hands of a Sniper.


I feel good about this one. Comments, everbody?
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I like it so far. Some parts feel TOO powerful and I think some playtesting of the weapon is really in order. I think this would complement our mod nicely.

Maybe also have a minimum distance to fire from? Maybe that would make it so people don't use it ALL the time. Something like 6 spaces maybe, so you can't move there in a turn, forcing people to actually plan out what they do. The invader is almost always going to be coming after you closing that distance, so they'll need to either get far enough away to use this gun effectively or pull out the machine gun and just use that. I'm thinking that it's not going to be useful to scope if you're one space away, so the gun is virtually useless maybe? I think that would balance the weapon a little. It will be immensly useful on things like the Nightmare level, where survival might be tricky...
 
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I think at first glance it might look more powerful than it really is. Gotta' remember that you can't hit max range and max damage in the same shot with doom dice. Red's max damage has 0 range and yellow's max range has 0 damage. So while the max range is approx. 18 spaces, the most damage the shot could do at that range is down around 5 I think. Can't say without looking at the dice. And despite its great range, it is possible to miss on range when aiming just 4 spaces away, depending on the sniper's cards.

Also note that the rifle doesn't shine until the sniper has all his cards. The gun essentially levels up alongside the gunner:

1.) Missing Sniper card = 30.5% chance to miss.
2.) Missing Marksman card = -3 to range
3.) Missing EfficientKiller card = 75% ammo loss rate, -1 range, -1 damage
4.) Missing PerfectAim card = gotta remain stationary to aim and shoot, unless you set up your aim at the end of a 'ready' turn, in which case the sniper certainly didn't aim&shoot before, and will likely lose the aim order due to being hit before he can get off a shot. PerfectAim grants the sniper the ability to aim-shoot-move, aim-shoot-move, which exactly how I imagine a sniper would operate when not camping. And they basically have to drop it in close combat anyway. When the trites come pouring in, clinging to the 'one shot one kill' school makes you spider food.

This does sound like it'll be fun to playtest.
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Yeah, I agree. Like I said, we'd really need to play test. Things like this might sound awesome on paper,but fail miserably in real life. The weapon seems very balanced though, so it's worth trying out for sure.

However, Kate made a great point the other night when I was telling her about all this stuff. This is all well and good for the marines, but the Invader character is getting kind of shafted without any fun mods. This weekend I think we should try our hand at playing invaders and switching and stuff to see what it's like exactly.
 
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Got some more additions for a class system game. A lot of the rules I've thrown out regarding respawning and leveling up can be applied to any Doom campaign, classes or not. The following are some ideas to enhance the class system even if you're otherwise playing with just the standard doom (and expansion) rules:

1.) The Sniper gets a high-powered sniper rifle at the start of the game. Rules described in a previous post.

2.) Every other class gets a unique order token. If you look through the marine cards that come with the expansion, you may notice that a lot of them give bonuses to orders. I suspect that FFG noticed nobody was using orders that much during the average game, so they made up things like the Assassin card to bribe them(if I give you +3 damage will you aim, PLEASE?) I thought up some new orders that people might really like to use sometimes. Some ideas:

*Order: ConserveAmmo
Token: Bullet with a red circle and a line through it
Class: Toolbox

After readying the Conserve Ammo order, the marine may spend it to make an attack that ignores ammo consumption.

*Order: HoldUp (alt: Delay, Wait, etc.)
Token: A hand's open palm, a-la "Stop" or "Talk to the Hand"
Class: Veteran Commando

After readying a HoldUp order, the marine may spend it to cancel a single Invader event card. The order expires naturally at the start of the marine's next turn, or when he makes an attack.

*Order: Coordinate
Token: A map grid. Maybe a globe grid?
Class: Staff Sergeant

After readying a Coordinate order, all marines within 3 spaces of the marine with the order get the benefit of the other orders they have readied. Different orders stack.
Example: Marine A readies a Guard order. Marine B moves within 3 spaces of Marine A and sets a Coordinate order. They both get to make an interrupt attack. Marine C is also within 3 spaces of Marine B. Marine C readies a Dodge order. All three marines also get to Dodge.

The coordinate order expires if the marine takes damage.

*Order: FullAuto
Token: M-134 spamming bullets.
Class: (open to debate - AssaultMarine or Grunt)

After readying a FullAuto order, the marine may spend it to make an attack that does extra damage when it burns up ammo. Bullet(ammo) icons that roll up on the dice each add an extra 1 point of damage. Fist, Chainsaw, and SniperRifle(debatable) don't count. Basically this order adds 0-1 damage to the Pistol, MachineGun, ShotGun, ChainGun, and RocketLauncher, and 0-2 damage to the PlasmaRifle and BFG for a consolation when you would otherwise be cursing your ammo-burning luck. The order expires the next time the marine moves.

*Order: NoPain
Token: Armor token, or a better idea
Class (AssaultMarine or Grunt - the one who doesn't get FullAuto)

After readying a NoPain order, the marine gains a temporary +1 armor bonus. This order expires at the start of the marine's turn.

*Order: Snuff
Token: A bloody dagger.
Class: SEAL

After readying a Snuff order, the marine may spend it on a melee fist attack. This order treats the X side of the red die as a 12-damage attack. The attack may be made while occupying the same space as the target, but if the target lives and the marine doesn't have enough movement to get to an empty space, the marine dies. This order expires naturally when the marine makes a non-fist attack, or sprints.


So you can use these to enhance a class system game without changing any of Doom's mechanics.
 
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I did notice I haven't been making any Invader mods. I also noticed that we've never even tried playing this game on a difficulty above 'Normal', and the only time we've ever legitimately beaten the first scenario on any difficulty is when we had a guy start with KillerInstinct+SpecialOps.

I also don't know if I can be trusted to make up new cards for the invader. The best I've come up with is modifying the difficulty levels to have more bonuses and restrictions. I have a big list of possibilities for the invader, but haven't really thought any of them out.
 
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Shatterhouse360 wrote:
the only time we've ever legitimately beaten the first scenario on any difficulty is when we had a guy start with KillerInstinct+SpecialOps.


ROFLMAO !

Doom's not THAT hard !
 
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I say 'legitimately' because we have a habit of getting rules wrong sometimes.

Come to think of it... the time I'm talking about wasn't a legitimate win either.

(this should all change now that I've sat down and actually read the rules. I recommend this to anyone thinking about getting into Doom... or any game... with rules.)

Also, we've been playing 3 marines with 2 cards each instead of 2 marines with 3 cards each. It's signifcantly harder because you have the same number of marine cards spread thinner, the same weapons and ammo spread thinner, but there are 50% more monsters trying to kill you, and they can end up ganging up on a single marine for a quick frag before moving on to the next.
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Ideas for proceeding through the campaign:

This should keep the campaign enough like a video game to appeal to those people who like the part about Doom being like a video game.

Here's how Doom works officially: When you die and respawn, the only thing you get back that you didn't have before is your health. No ammo or guns or anything. When you complete a scenario, you can spend kill points to buy things. Some of those things are ammo. I think it's 5 points for bullets, 5 points for grenades, and 10 points for power cells.
**I vote that the first purchase of a specific ammo type gets you a box of said ammo, and an increase in the base ammo you get to respawn with(to a base max of 1).

This does not change respawning in scenario 1. Upon completing scenario 1, the player can spend 20 points to receive 1 box of bullets, 1 box of grenades, and 1 power cell. Or some combination of them. From this point on in the campaign, if that marine dies without any ammo of the type he purchased, he may respawn with 1 of the appropriate ammo tokens. It's like when you spend 50 points to upgrade your base armor, but you're upgrading your base ammo.

It's interesting to note that this may be favorable to the Invader player also, because then the marines would be 5, 10, 15, or 20 kill points farther away from an armor or card upgrade.

EfficientKiller's base max for bullet ammo after buying bullets would be 2.

Note: This doesn't mean you can't run out of power cell ammo if you buy it once in between missions. It means you get a free power cell ammo token if you die and don't already have one.


6 Frags is the standard goal for a scenario. If the marines make it out in less than that, they proceed to the next scenario. Otherwise, they get a single replay of that scenario. (One continue when you're out of 1-Ups).

When replaying a scenario, the marines all start with full health and one of these:
1.) they keep their weapons as they had them at the end of their first attempt.
or
2.) they revert back to the weapons they had when they first started the scenario.

The second one is probably best.

But-- any kill points earned during the first attempt are lost. Players also revert to their base armor and base ammo. At this time they have the option of purchasing more ammo using the kill points they had when they first started this scenario.

Also, reshuffle the invader deck.
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Dam the Man wrote:
Shatterhouse360 wrote:
the only time we've ever legitimately beaten the first scenario on any difficulty is when we had a guy start with KillerInstinct+SpecialOps.


ROFLMAO :D !

Doom's not THAT hard :p !


True, but we're also always screwing around with it. Some mods wind up being a really bad idea and destroy us haha.
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Thoughts on difficulty levels. I'm thinking these should replace the current ones completely, not have these in addition to the others.

I'm too young to die!
--Instant respawning
+1 marine card
+4 health

Hey, not too rough
--Instant respawning.
+2 health

Normal
--Instant respawning, limited to 2 each for 3 marines, or 3 each for 2 marines per scenario.


Hard
--Respawning via exploring new areas. Can use regular instant respawn rules if there are no unexplored areas and said respawn would not make 6 frags. Players can decide to call it a frag and respawn even if it would have been possible to revive the dead marine.
Revived marines do not count towards the frag total.

Still limited to 6 frags for a scenario.


Nightmare
--Respawning via exploring new areas. Can use revive mechanics, but death is permanent. A respawned marine is a new marine with base number of cards, base armor, base ammo, base everything. Campaign as a whole is limited to a preset number of unique characters. (42 tops)


Extra Nightmare
--Same as nightmare but with only 14 unique marines. 2 of each class. Players may sort the classes themselves, pick one to start with, or both.

Double Extra Nightmare
--From here on, we keep expanding on nightmare, but we give the marine players less and less control over their characters. The single highest difficulty level would be allowing the Invader to hand pick the cards for all the characters, and also decide the order they respawn in.
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Actually, I came up with this idea when I was on the phone last night with Kate.

Frankly you're making WAY too many mods. It's to a point where the game has become vastly different and people aren't going to be able to just pick up our mod and go. How to solve this issue?

Simple. We develop a quick mod with the class system for people to try out and play with their current game. Second, we outright write a WHOLE new expansion for Doom. I have an idea for including new monsters and challenges for the marines. We take our expansion and we show it to FFG when it's done. But in the meantime people can still play with our class system and they won't need any majorly new materials, nor will they need to overhaul what they already know TOO much to get into our system.

Naturally in the fully written expansion we'll include rules for alternate Doom play in our expansion system. What do you think?
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I've been meaning to reply to this for quite some time-but there is just so much to read/reply to in this thread that the task seemed a little daunting... Feedback Begin!

First off. All the Class stuff looks good, I can't really see any problems with it, and it will definitely solve the problem of overpowered/underpowered combinations, which can be a major fun-killer.

I'm going to suggest something radical at this point, and you might disagree, but I feel like it's worth pointing out- You could Stop here and you'd have a good, simple, easy to use, Mod.

In other words-Forget about changing anything else, Only change as much as you have to in order to meet your design goal, and not a jot more :)

If your sure you want to keep everything else, then read on.

Making the amount of KP variable based on number of times Killed could be really unbalancing. In a 3 Marine game, odds are that everyone will die once, as you point out, This only leaves 2 frags left assuming the Marines succeed. This means that one (maybe two) Marine(s) will get a super cheap Marine card (15 KP for it, that's something like 75% off the original cost!), and that the other one (or two) will get their cards at somewhere between 50%~-40% off the original rate. This *might* work if you were planning on removing the 6-Frag Cap, and if the IP took care to make sure Frags were relatively spread out (While still punishing bad moves).

The Sniper Rifle is intriguing, I've been putting a lot of thought into weapon modifications lately too, and hadn't really come up with anything like this yet. Kudos! I especially like how it ties in well with the class. If I'm not mistaken however-the only thing that makes other classes not want to use it is the fact that it has a high ammo consumption rate, right? That and that it has a 30% chance of missing without 'Sniper'. One other thing about it though-It is Crazy powerful to start the game with, so while you may have intended to balance out the Sniper class with the others, you may have actually started them off above the other classes by giving them a top tier weapon. I don't think it needs the 2 Deadly, Red and Yellow have pretty good damage representation already. (On and I'm sure you noticed by now but there are only two ammo symbols on Red and Yellow dice)

I like the new Order tokens by class-I think it fits with the class system, and if you do end up striping some of this stuff out to save it for later, then you should consider keeping this in.

I think Kate is right-Invader will need a few new tricks, I suspect that all of this will have the effect of reversing the imbalance (Marines will be much stronger in this mod)

Thanks for the work, and Hope my feedback is of some use.
Take a look at my "You only live once" mod if you like, I've followed your lead and put the rules at the top and will update them as playtesting progresses :)

-Evan
 
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I agree completely that there's too much stuff in here for a quick game. This weekend I was hoping to try out just the 7 classes and their new orders.

FFG already had another expansion ready for Doom(not sure how ready) but it was cancelled a couple years ago because it didn't make financial sense to produce. Too few people play Doom. That could change on account of my genius, but I wouldn't get my hopes up about actually selling anything yet.


Quote:
Making the amount of KP variable based on number of times Killed could be really unbalancing. In a 3 Marine game, odds are that everyone will die once, as you point out, This only leaves 2 frags left assuming the Marines succeed. This means that one (maybe two) Marine(s) will get a super cheap Marine card (15 KP for it, that's something like 75% off the original cost!), and that the other one (or two) will get their cards at somewhere between 50%~-40% off the original rate. This *might* work if you were planning on removing the 6-Frag Cap, and if the IP took care to make sure Frags were relatively spread out (While still punishing bad moves).


I was thinking frags would be shared between marines. 1 guy gets fragged and the price goes up for everybody who hasn't made it through the red door yet. Or maybe change the discount depending on the number of marines, so 1 frag would raise the fragged marine's card cost by 20 or 30 for that scenario.

I was also thinking of having variable-priced cards depending on how many the marine already has. The first card purchased could be 65, but then the next one might cost 90, and so on. Like experience points or something.

Quote:
The Sniper Rifle is intriguing, I've been putting a lot of thought into weapon modifications lately too, and hadn't really come up with anything like this yet. Kudos! I especially like how it ties in well with the class. If I'm not mistaken however-the only thing that makes other classes not want to use it is the fact that it has a high ammo consumption rate, right? That and that it has a 30% chance of missing without 'Sniper'. One other thing about it though-It is Crazy powerful to start the game with, so while you may have intended to balance out the Sniper class with the others, you may have actually started them off above the other classes by giving them a top tier weapon. I don't think it needs the 2 Deadly, Red and Yellow have pretty good damage representation already.


It occurred to me after I made the custom orders for the 6 other classes that I could easily change this SniperRifle weapon to a Snipe order that would add damge, range, red, and green dice and an aim benefit to a standard pistol attack. The SniperRifle as I wrote it already works mostly like an order anyway since you have to use it before moving and can only use it once per turn. This would also allow the class with the Coordinate order to let a couple marines share it.

But I'm still not convinced it's too powerful because of the restrictions. One shot per turn while 1-3 invaders spawn per turn makes getting overwhelmed inevitable.


And I still can't be trusted to make up invader abilities, especially having never played the invader. Hm... maybe a card-swap card would be good.
Flustered: "Switch any number of marine cards between any of the marines for 1 turn."
Spine Chill: "Cancel one marine card until the start of that marine's next turn."
HAHAHAHAHA!!
 
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Quote:
It occurred to me after I made the custom orders for the 6 other classes that I could easily change this SniperRifle weapon to a Snipe order that would add damge, range, red, and green dice and an aim benefit to a standard pistol attack. The SniperRifle as I wrote it already works mostly like an order anyway since you have to use it before moving and can only use it once per turn. This would also allow the class with the Coordinate order to let a couple marines share it
.

Ah Yes, but wasn't your intent on this idea to give the sniper something unique that would balance the class damage wise with the others? :) Sharing it with Coordinate would put a damper on this. I had another point but I got up to do something and when I sat back down I'd forgotten it.
 
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Quote:

The Sniper Rifle is intriguing, I've been putting a lot of thought into weapon modifications lately too, and hadn't really come up with anything like this yet. Kudos! I especially like how it ties in well with the class. If I'm not mistaken however-the only thing that makes other classes not want to use it is the fact that it has a high ammo consumption rate, right? That and that it has a 30% chance of missing without 'Sniper'. One other thing about it though-It is Crazy powerful to start the game with, so while you may have intended to balance out the Sniper class with the others, you may have actually started them off above the other classes by giving them a top tier weapon. I don't think it needs the 2 Deadly, Red and Yellow have pretty good damage representation already. (On and I'm sure you noticed by now but there are only two ammo symbols on Red and Yellow dice)


Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to propose a major change this weekend when we sit down to discuss all this stuff. A lot of it ties in with a new expansion completely. This is where Kate will get her power. For now I think changing it to make it more balanced is the best idea, this way people can play through their two scenarios via the class method and have fun with that. If they want to explore a major power campaign they can explore our proposed expansion concept. Hopefully I'll have some details after this weekend on what exactly that will be. I'm developing new monsters for this one though. Ones that can challenge levelled up Marines!
 
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