Recommend
14 
 Thumb up
 Hide
40 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » Conventions

Subject: Geekway to the West 2009: The Trade Table rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jeff Hiatt
United States
OFallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Since the trade table inevitably produces a series of questions and comments on its structure, I am creating this thread for that purpose. It is cross linked with the Trade Table Geeklist.

http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/40061
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Darden
United States
Lake Saint Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Looks good Jeff. Thanks for all your help this year.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin Heimburger
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Are we sticking with the Saturday afternoon timeframe?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Darden
United States
Lake Saint Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We are. Get all your games in by noon or 1 (Jeff's call here), and we'll start it off Saturday afternoon.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Franz Kafka
United States
St. Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just wondering: Can items be dropped off earlier than Saturday? Thanks for running this!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Darden
United States
Lake Saint Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yep, Jeff will start taking games on Friday. Just look for the guy that looks like the start player marker in Stone Age.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chester
United States
Temple
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cbdarden wrote:
Yep, Jeff will start taking games on Friday. Just look for the guy that looks like the start player marker in Stone Age.

First time I met him, he was my partner in crime in a werewolf game. Its amazing he lasted as long as he did.

(Edit: I meant this was because he LOOKS like a werewolf and would be a natural target by the villagers. Upon rereading that may not have been so obvious.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Timothy Hunt
United States
St Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Copying discussion over from the Geekway Meta-geeklist.

valthalion wrote:
I plan to enter a geeklist of the trade table picks and all the information was recorded. THere may be a slight delay as the notes may be on their way to the Quad Cities at this moment. The notes were put in Dans bag for storage / safe keeping purposes and we may not have remembered to remove them before he left this AM. ok...let me rephrase...I didnt remember, so lets hope Dan did. Otherwise we will have to await their return via USPS.

I hope everyone had fun with the trade table. It was indeed long, but it was surprisingly fun to do. I want to thank everyone for being patient and for the numerous expresssions of appreciation I recieved before, during and after the event. I also want to thank all of those who played games with me while I took entries or ran the table as it really helped to pass the time. There were numerous interruptions and everyone was very patient. I especially want to thank Dan White and Tim Bass for sacrificing their time to make repeated efforts to game with me during the 7 hour picking marathon.

I will do this again next year, though i am hopeful of coming up with a way to speed it up without sacrificing the laid back pace which generally allowed people plenty of time to make their choice.

The best idea I have heard yet is to start a second person picking after the first X picks have been made. The attractiveness of this is that if doesnt require any procedural changes except for drawing an additional name from the list of entrants at the predetermined point in time. Theoretically this would cut the time in half once two people people were picking at the same time. Thus if the first hour is single threaded and the balance of the time double threaded, the 7 hours would be cut to 4 hours (1 + 6 / 2 ).

Limiting entrants is unattractive as the people who entered the most lots tended to have the best stuff, meaning their least "valuable" entry was good compared to many of the other entries..such as Urban Legend or Life x2.

So how do you curtail people entering Monopoly (with or without a box) and etc without impacting the people who contribute a lot of choice items? I cant think of a simple way which doesnt involve a subjective determination by myself or someone else...and i really dont want to be in that position.

-----

I have also already decided on several improvements...all communication / organization based.

first...i need to have information posted and readily available. The rules are few, but should be more visible.

Second I am going to have proxy cards made up so people can designate a proxy picker when they have to leave for a bit.

Third I am going to have cards ready so people can submit a preference list in lieu of a proxy picker.

The proxy and prefernce cards will be in the swag bag, but additional copies will be available from me (or my designate) at the trade table.

Fourth, I am going to see if i cant make this Excel based, both for the entries and for the recording of the picks. I should be able to enter the number just picked and have excel find the name of the next picker without me having to look it up. I thought about that this year, but wanted to go with the manual (tried and true) system for my first effort. With some experience I think I can use a laptop to make it easier on me and improve the record keeping.

Fifth (edited in). I am going to provide sticky tags which can be affixed to the game to provides notes from the submitter.

Sixth. There will be some kind of COLOR sticker to indicate such things as (incomplete ...RED sticker?) or contains expandions (BLUE sticker?). I dont want to go overly crazy here, but knowing something is incomplete IS important as is the advantage of having an expansion. Clarifying comments can then be made using the stickers in point 5.

--------

Looming problem. With the sucess of Geekway and its continued growth, there is going to be a problem with getting the name of the next pick out to all of the gaming rooms. I figure technology will be our friend, but some thought needs to be put into this.

--------

Lastly...I welcome all comments / suggestions / ideas / feedback. My goal is the continued success of the trade table and to make it as an enjoyable of an experience as possible.

thank you, Jeff





Timotheous wrote:

valthalion wrote:

The best idea I have heard yet is to start a second person picking after the first X picks have been made. The attractiveness of this is that if doesnt require any procedural changes except for drawing an additional name from the list of entrants at the predetermined point in time. Theoretically this would cut the time in half once two people people were picking at the same time. Thus if the first hour is single threaded and the balance of the time double threaded, the 7 hours would be cut to 4 hours (1 + 6 / 2 ).


Great idea - in fact, it would be an even better improvement, as with two people picking simultaneously, there would be incentive to choose quickly, as otherwise the thing you want might be picked by the other person.





cornjob wrote:
This may be obvious...but just thought I'd mention (since I, too, have spent a lot of time thinking about different ways to run the event):

If you have a second person choose at the same time I see two drawbacks (which may still not be reason NOT to do it).

1) The last two people end up without a game, instead of just the one. This is PROBABLY fine. It appeared a couple people were intentionally TRYING to get the last pick. I think its good to avoid accidentally creating an incentive for putting up crappy games. Maybe the pendulum has swung too far in that direction. (The table overall had very little crap, though.)

2) In past years, we've had some physically disabled people in attendance, and have participated in the Trade Table (although I don't think that happened this year). I was worried about setting up a system that penalized them or discouraged them from participating.

3) Other than the pain of administering the event, is it really a problem for it to take so long? For example....if it was 8 hours long....what about scheduling a break after 6 hours for an hour for dinner. I know I deferred dinner since I still had picks. But so what if it goes into the later evening? (Perhaps a second administrator could alleviate the pain of one person being tied to it the whole time.....and NO I am not volunteering to be this person. )

But mainly, THANKS JEFF!! You did an awesome job and the trade table was a lot of fun as usual. I love the format (of course, I WOULD love it), but you've made it even smoother.

Oh, as an afterthought...I picked a game that turned out to be incomplete. In the past I'd stressed that people needed to clearly mark if the item was not complete. May have been just an oversight of a single game, but I don't remember seeing anything telling people they had to post that on the package.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin Heimburger
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cornjob wrote:

Oh, as an afterthought...I picked a game that turned out to be incomplete. In the past I'd stressed that people needed to clearly mark if the item was not complete. May have been just an oversight of a single game, but I don't remember seeing anything telling people they had to post that on the package.


I remember seeing a not to that effect from Jeff somewhere on here, but it would perhaps be useful to include in any trad table-related literature that may be passed out in the future.

ps: it wasn't my LOTR, was it? I didn't check it before I dropped it off, but it hadn't been opened in several months, either, and it was complete last time I put it away.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chester
United States
Temple
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
juheimbu wrote:
cornjob wrote:

Oh, as an afterthought...I picked a game that turned out to be incomplete. In the past I'd stressed that people needed to clearly mark if the item was not complete. May have been just an oversight of a single game, but I don't remember seeing anything telling people they had to post that on the package.


I remember seeing a not to that effect from Jeff somewhere on here, but it would perhaps be useful to include in any trad table-related literature that may be passed out in the future.

ps: it wasn't my LOTR, was it? I didn't check it before I dropped it off, but it hadn't been opened in several months, either, and it was complete last time I put it away.

I haven't checked LOTR yet, and can't confirm I have your copy anyway. But eyeballing it, its in good condition.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Hasegawa
United States
Chandler
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I sent Jeff a PM with the suggestion, but I thought I'd post here so the idea could receive sufficient tweaks.

If you are going to track on a spreadsheet anyway, run an IM client like Yahoo! messenger and you can send SMS messages to cell phones. If you get a cell number from folks when they drop games at the trade table, you can simply send them a text message if they can't be found. The center had free wi-fi and sending SMS text messages is free over Yahoo! (charges still apply to the recipient, but I think most folks can live with the $0.15-$0.25 charges...)

That would probably help with the having to hang out all day/night and/or having to have a proxy picker.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Hiatt
United States
OFallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
good feedback so far.

Chester. Having two "final" picks is maybe a good thing as it de-emphasizes the final pick and reduces the incentive to enter items specifically for the purpose of garnering the somberro.

As for handicapped, i think given the close proximity of the game tables and relatively narrow aisles, mobility would be an issue regardless of the number of concurrent pickers. I believe our response should be simply that I or whomever is running the TT at the time will assist anyone as much as we can to ensure they can get their choice made. Perhaps that in combination of a preference list made when there is no pressure to make a quick selection would be a reasonable solution.

Timothy...Yes, two concurrent pickers could produce more quick selections as some may fear losing out to the other person by mere seconds. However, in practice i doubt we gain any significant time, And there is the chance that two people could simultaneously grab the same game and thus require some arbitration. A D20 could manage such situations. One can alwasy turn to the Die of Decision Making.

The only downside i see to two simultaneous picking threads is the record keeping, for example if person A selects game 86, i dont inherently know which thread person "A" belongs to and thus reonstructing the list for Geeklist purposes will be impossible unless recorded as two distinct lists. The only issue there is keeping track of which of the two people picking is the original thread and which is the add-on thread. Perhaps, to buy 3 hours of time, having a perfectly recorded pick list is not as important. We would still now what order the choices were made, would not necessarily know what the chain was; ie, 'I donated the shrink copy of Power Grid and got a copy of Small World' would not be possible from the records as they stand now. If this is the only downside, I think its sufficiently small to be a non-factor.

The more this is bandied about, the more attracted to the idea I become. Keep it coming all.

Bash a hole in it...i dare ya!!!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin Heimburger
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cornjob wrote:
juheimbu wrote:
cornjob wrote:

Oh, as an afterthought...I picked a game that turned out to be incomplete. In the past I'd stressed that people needed to clearly mark if the item was not complete. May have been just an oversight of a single game, but I don't remember seeing anything telling people they had to post that on the package.


I remember seeing a not to that effect from Jeff somewhere on here, but it would perhaps be useful to include in any trad table-related literature that may be passed out in the future.

ps: it wasn't my LOTR, was it? I didn't check it before I dropped it off, but it hadn't been opened in several months, either, and it was complete last time I put it away.

I haven't checked LOTR yet, and can't confirm I have your copy anyway. But eyeballing it, its in good condition.


I'm pretty sure it's mine. I saw you walking away from the table with it in hand while I was going to make my final pick.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel J
United States
Iowa City
IA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd also like to express thanks to Jeff for running the excellent trade table.

While you certainly never needed to worry about hearing your name with Jeff around, I think the trade table and con as a whole could definitely benefit from a mic and speakers in the side room and overflow room.

Certainly if a game is incomplete it would be good to have some way to mark it, but I have to believe that if a game was on the trade table this year and was incomplete, it was probably because the person didn't know it was incomplete.

One thought to consider if running two simultaneous picks would be how much time you actually have to play games. It seemed like most people didn't take more than a minute to make a pick. Between looking stuff up for two people and calling names you might find it hard to stay in the game, but I have no idea.

Whatever is easiest for the person managing the table. I think it would be fine either way and thought it went really well this year and is definitely part of what makes Geekway so awesome.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay Moore
United States
Webster Groves
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Just regarding size of the event, time taken, and so on - the simplest thing would just be to limit the number of lots allowed for each person to submit. I mean, I submitted ten lots this year (the max, normally I only submit 5 or so) but I could have made do with only half that many.

I think it's also fair to reject items for the trade table - but I don't think it's worth it. I only saw just a couple of things that I would have preferred not been in the mix. I mean, when you get so far down the list, it's not like you thought your copy of Trouble (missing the Popomatic Bubble) would really get you much anyway, so what's the harm? I would say the picks were decent all the way down to the last dozen or so. Even a couple of those were interesting, like the game with the "Certificate of Authenticity" in it. So by rejecting items, you save yourself from dealing with maybe 15 bundles at the end, but at the cost of possible hard feelings. Not really necessary, IMO.

But limiting to just five bundles - that might help. If you want to. You did a great job, so not a lot of need to change anything, really.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin
United States
Creve Coeur
MO
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Fantastic job, first and foremost. Participating is a privilege that I enjoy because of others' hard work.

I don't have a problem with a BGG rank (e.g. top 1000) or average rating (e.g. 6.00+) requirement. That'll cut 'er down.

Craptrading could be encouraged on Sunday alongside sales. I did some direct trading with sellers on Sunday.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Casey Miller
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
this is my fav part of the con. great job jeff! even though you always yelled my name when i was sitting right next to you

i could help next year for computer entry, my phone can scan bar codes which would be even easier.

is there a geeklist of the order the games went this year? It's always interesting to see.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chester
United States
Temple
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
astroglide wrote:
Fantastic job, first and foremost. Participating is a privilege that I enjoy because of others' hard work.

I don't have a problem with a BGG rank (e.g. top 1000) or average rating (e.g. 6.00+) requirement. That'll cut 'er down.

Craptrading could be encouraged on Sunday alongside sales. I did some direct trading with sellers on Sunday.

I'm a little leary of bringing BGG ratings into it. Some rarer/older/wargame etc may be unfairly excluded. I know I've picked up a couple wargames I was excited about that would not make any conservative cut this way.

Honestly, I don't even perceive a problem with the table quality. Sure there are some low end things, but it wasn't like the table was inundated with garbage. There were less than 5 entries that probably no one would really want. The rest would have appealed to someone.

I think limiting total number of entered lots encourages people to be more selective and not just have a couple dozen entries of card games and assorted crap...and to bundle those types of items. There was a LOT of bundling this year, which I thought was really great.

Is it broke? If not, don't fix it.

Final thought....since with this format the last game is going to end up with someone getting nothing, its useful that there are a few low-end items to this is not such a bitter pill. If I put up a $25 game and came away empty handed I'd be a little miffed. If I put in a $3 garage sale find, I can live with it....as long as I get the sombrero.

That said, the guy that got the sombrero this year was clearly gunning for it and enjoyed it WAAAAY too much. It was borderline creepy.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin
United States
Creve Coeur
MO
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
I will do this again next year, though i am hopeful of coming up with a way to speed it up without sacrificing the laid back pace which generally allowed people plenty of time to make their choice.

Limiting entrants is unattractive as the people who entered the most lots tended to have the best stuff, meaning their least "valuable" entry was good compared to many of the other entries..such as Urban Legend or Life x2.

So how do you curtail people entering Monopoly (with or without a box) and etc without impacting the people who contribute a lot of choice items? I cant think of a simple way which doesnt involve a subjective determination by myself or someone else...and i really dont want to be in that position.


Shrug. I don't know if it's broke, I only made the suggestion in response to Jeff's comments above:

Wants it sped up, doesn't want to reduce lots, doesn't want a personal judgement of quality.

I think anything that's anything has a rating, although not everything has enough votes for rank.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Darden
United States
Lake Saint Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think there's a lot of good feedback on here. Whomever runs the table, sets the rules... but since you're taking feedback.. I hate the idea of two picks going on at the same time. I say you limit everyone to 7 lots.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Hiatt
United States
OFallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chris ...why do you hate the idea of two people picking simultaneously?

Limiting people to 7 entries would have taken the total of 218 entires down to 206.

Chris Darden, Jay Moore, Tony Langasek and Steve Zamborsky each had 10 entries, but no one else had more than 7.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin
United States
Creve Coeur
MO
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
FWIW I think double-picking is dubious because of the racing and chaos elements.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Darden
United States
Lake Saint Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
valthalion wrote:
Chris ...why do you hate the idea of two people picking simultaneously?

Limiting people to 7 entries would have taken the total of 218 entires down to 206.

Chris Darden, Jay Moore, Tony Langasek and Steve Zamborsky each had 10 entries, but no one else had more than 7.



Ah, good info to have.

I like the linear structure of the way we do it.. it just seems fair and less chaotic. The other issue you run into is a second person at the end who doesn't get a pick. Two sombreros of shame would break the budget! It's not like those things are given away for free at Chevys or something. Think man think!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Hiatt
United States
OFallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I like the linear structure too as it makes reconstructing the pick order in a Geeklist possible. With two simultaneous threads, it will be a lot harder to keep track.

I am hesitant to suggest this, and perhaps this could be viewed within the context of overall Geekway finances, but maybe a charge of 1$ per entry would have the desired effect. Desirable games will not be affected, nor would most bundles as their values are typically far above a buck. However, this would impact the low end submissions, such as a naked monopoly game; while funny, is simply a consumer of a several minutes of time. I think this would limit the low end submissions with little impact to the rest of the submissions, resulting in fewer picks and an overal higher quality level.

This would mean the Parrish's would have to spend upwards of 5 bucks to claim the sombrero of shame. Lets see how much they really want it.

thoughts? I know this would be a big change in philosophy, but lets discuss and see if its even something worth considering.





 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chester
United States
Temple
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Can I ask.....what exactly was the problem with the Trade Table this year?

It seemed to run smoothly. I don't think the total duration was a problem to those of us who participated, although delaying dinner was inconvenient. I think having a dinner break at a scheduled time would address that, without changing the structure of the event or restricting people further.

If the primary issue was that Jeff got sick of moderating it for so long (totally understandable), that can also be addressed by spreading that responsibility. I know there was discussion of hiring someone to manage the Trade Table since it IS such a time-sink.

I guess I haven't heard anything yet that really sounded to me like there was a problem that requires the type of changes being suggested. If it was run exactly the same next year....I don't see what the problem would be. Just give me an hour dinner break as a participant (and maybe start it a bit earlier).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.