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Subject: My troubles with item/character revealing rss

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J Woods
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I recently got this game, and for the first few games I had accidently thought when revealing a room, the items/characters are placed by each opposite player and THEN flipped. I thought nothing of it, and it seemed fair enough.
I have been playing with the right way now for a few more games, and it seems to me that flipping the items/chars first and then placing all the chacters of both colors seems very harsh.
I know there are many ways to deal with this, especially carefully placing the characters next to you so you reveal them, etc. But placing your own characters too?! I recently realized, on your first turn, you could reveal your first room with a character in it, then place him next to the next tile, and reveal that one, and place more characters towards the end of that board. Thats already 1/4 the dungeon open and maybe even all of your characters.
Another problem I found is that tiles with multi player characters could instantly be killed in the same turn. I had a chance to place my warrior next to a sword, next to the other players warrior. I then could next move my warrior onto the sword and attack. This just seems completely unfair. And again, I know it is all in the planning of the item palcement and gambling, but this could potentially be gamebreaking.

I was thinking about adding a rule saying, characters cannot be placed on the outside ring of a board, and atleast 4 spaces from an opposing players character. Or even, just keeping it with placing only the opposing players colors, and not your own characters.

I know this was long, but I have been not wanting to play the correct way because it seems sort of unfair. And I wanted to get others opinions on the placement and revealing of items/characters.
 
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Eric Franklin
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Milton
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A large part of the placement is strategy. Yes, it's possible that your character will die before he gets to act - but your opponent's characters are in the same boat.

Putting your characters only near you means you have to go further to escape. Putting your characters closer to your opponent means they are at more risk of attack. It also means you run the risk of not having that room revealed - I played a game the other day where my opponent's Goblin and Thief were right in front of my starting line. I never opened the room, and so my opponent was denied access to his thief.

There isn't really a foolproof way to defend yourself unless you can somehow convince your opponent that they need to let YOU reveal all the rooms, and they shouldn't bother with it.

And I think we all know how likely that is to happen.

There is a lot of power in revealing rooms - but something I learned the hard way is that you should never spend your last AP to reveal a room containing any of your opponent's tokens. You need to save at least one AP to react to what you find in that room - if it's Room 1 or Room 2, then your opponent has a lot of ability in which to move around on their turn and you may not be able to trap them or escape them.

At the same time, learn what you can do without. For example, I will nearly always place my treasure on my opponent's starting line - one of my characters carrying it becomes a significant target, and if he wants to carry it all the way across the board, then more power to him! I also don't much care for the Wall-Walker. I'm more likely to put her somewhere vulnerable than my Mechanork, who I treasure.

It's risk assessment. Initial placement is the second strategic decision you make every game (the first is "Who are my starting four?").

Eric
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J Woods
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Very interesting. This is exactly what kind of discussion I wanted to hear. I knew since this game has been out for a few years people have gotten a really good grasp on how to manahe their tokens and actions properly. I understood most of what you said before I wrote this post. I guess my frustration was in the gambling aspect of doing it the latter way (throwing some characters into your opponents starting line!).
I must say, this game is incredibly good anyway you play it, and even without variants there are millions of combos and decisions to make per game, it boggles my mind.
Anyone else have some usefull info or input on this matter?
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Niclas Matikainen
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Like you said yourself, it's a gambling aspect. Putting a character far forward can win or lose you the game. Most of the time, it's the later. Sure, you could end up with the right combination of characters in exactly the right room, pretty much imobilizing your opponent from the start. Yes, it's really cool when it happens.
But nine times out of ten your opponent will have an easy score, killing one of your characters right away.
More importantly, if it worked, it's not very likelly that your opponent is going to let you get away with it again...

J Woods wrote:
Another problem I found is that tiles with multi player characters could instantly be killed in the same turn


Wounded at least, not killed. Unless the Wizard and his Fireball Wand is close at hand.
But as mentioned; if you gamble, you are going to lose most of the time. Any of your own characters that your opponent gets to reveal is a likelly casualty. So never let your opponent reveal any of your characters.
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Joe Grundy
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Yes you can spend a high Action card in an early turn to flip tiles with your characters daisychaining across the dungeon. And maybe even you can push an escape that way.

However, then you have one less character on the board, and a hodgepodge of characters strewn at distance from each other and in potentially fairly uncoordinated and useless locations. At this point, your cunning opponent has organised a strike force and marches through your characters killing them off one at a time.

Or maybe not. Maybe you can dodge them and regroup or outrun them. Choosing one approach or another in your initial distribution of chits is a strategical decision, which you may or may not have to rethink once the chits start being revealed.


The upside of having control over all character placement when you Reveal a room is somewhat offset by the fact that it costs an Action. Imagine if one player Revealed all eight rooms... while they'd have a lot of influence over the board they'd also have eight less Action points to spend doing other things over those first few turns. That's not trivial.


And I agree, never Reveal a room on your last Action point.


In your initial distribution of chits you need to consider your strategy for this game ... race or fight? Cluster or disperse your characters? What's your overall plan? (Your strategy may even change a little depending on which rooms your opponent is playing into.) Some of "your" objects, the ones you need less for today's plan, you are going to essentially give them as gifts by the mere choice of placing them nearer your opponent on rooms that probably have your opponent's characters in them. Neither plan nor assume that you will get to grab and use all "your" objects.
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