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Brass: Lancashire» Forums » General

Subject: Level 1 Industry are vastly inferior, Iron is King rss

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wodan wodan
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With the exception of the Level Coal or Iron, there is virtually no reason to ever build Level 1 Industries. This is because in addition to being significantly weaker than later Levels anyways, they only score once, whereas Level 2+ Industries built and flipped during the Canal Period score twice. To give you an idea of the difference, look below:

L1 Cotton Mill+L1 Port: For 18 Money, you gain 8 Income, 3 VPs
L2 Cotton Mill+L2 Port: For 21 Money, you gain 7 Income, 18 VPs.
Sure you lose 1 Income, pay 3 more, and have to develop, but when you multiply your VPs by 6, it hardly matters.

This in turn makes Iron Refineries the best building in the game. If you get them all out during the first period of the game, for 33 Money, you get 9 Income and 45 VPs, furthermore, you most likely got some free develops, which in turn allows you to get other nice things out. The Level 4 Refinery gives the same amount of VP as the Level 2 Shipyard, even, at a fraction of the cost and with major benefits in return.
 
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Mark Tyler
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Iron works are dandy until your opponents realize that you are winning. There is always the risk that your level 2 and level 3 iron works will be built over. If you are playing with inexperienced players you need not worry too much because the iron demand track rarely runs out and players are usually not looking to build over opponents iron works. On the other hand, if you are playing with four players who know the value of developing early and often, the iron demand track can be exhausted multiple times and provide ample opportunity to build over others' iron works.

High level ports are the most economical way to victory points, especially if your opponents flip them for you.

The least risky path to a lot of victory points is via rail building. Unfortunately, it is expensive to build double rails and it doesn't provide income growth. Combining rail building for points and coal mines for income growth and cheaper coal makes a nice combo.
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Pasta Batman
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It seems you are neglecting the 'action cost' of devlopment. If you only build level two industries in the canal phase, that means you're spending at least 1.5 actions on each (since you can develop up to two industries per action), and leaving more build opportunities for your opponents. It seems doing all that will also require significant loans, which also have an action cost.

edit: Feel free to point out any fallacies here - I'm a noob.
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James Cheevers
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wodan46 wrote:
for 33 Money, you get 9 Income and 45 VPs,


I think I could guarantee that some tiles wouldn't be getting flipped for those lovely points.
 
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Rowan Lawrence
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As with most 'killer strategies', you neglect the human element. If your opponents see you doing this, they'll easily block you out of popping all of the iron, and snatch up all the best spots for mills, ports, et cetera, while the action cost of your development bites you in the arse. In the meantime, your income will develop 2-5 turns slower than your opponents, leaving you stranded as, for example, some bastard (like myself) builds L2+ coal mines in the southeast at the end of Canal age, pops 4 rails out of Manchester at the start of Rail age, nets an eventual 25 points on the rail alone, gathers a bunch of cash, and blocks your specific industry cards from being useful in that area.

Every strategy in this game has an equal and opposite strategy.

Development? They take all the good spots while you do it.
No development? They take all the good spots when you have to do it later.

Mills? They block your ports and sell to foreign first.
No Mills? Where's the early development and profit coming from?

Coal? They avoid L2 Mills for a few extra turns, and you're behind on income.
No coal? Say goodbye to good income in the Rail age.

Ports? Get out-competed for profit by the Mill barons.
No Ports? Your mills will fail to sell to foreign when some bastard gets there first and you will help others up at no action cost to them.

Iron? People delay development a little and cut you out of cash development.
No Iron? You can't develop without paying extra or helping others' progress.

There is no perfect strategy. There is only trying for balance, displaying opportunism and reading the game better than your opponents.
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You forgot the action you spent developing. Well, if you are going to build cotton mills, you are going to develop soon or late, right. But you didn't take into account the resource cost, two iron (for develop) and one coal (you have to be able to transport).

Let me make another comparison.
Two Lvl 1 cotton mills+foreign market cost you 24 pounds. You can sell them on turn three or four, with a loan included. They raise your income by about 14. If you try the same with lvl 2 mills, you will spend like 10 pounds more (resources, interest, price diff), and your income will be about 12 one turn later. Only if someone else haven't done it yet with level 1 mills.

I always try to land some level 2 industries on channel age. but I always build some level 1 to improve my income. That way in rail age, I am able to build rails and industries, without take too much loans.

Next time I'll try to just take a lot of loans. I am curious what will happen.
 
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Philip Eve
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Level 1 ports are abslutely terrible and I would never build both of them, and would generally like to avoid building either. But, there's the odd situation where I'd build one at the beginning of the game, probably as my first tile in order to then build to somewhere I can build an Iron Works or something.

Level 1 Cotton Mills can be useful - consider that if you build one as early as possible then you are in the race for first Distant Market sale. Regardez:

Turn 1: build Cotton Mill in Macclesfield/Stockport/Colne/Rochdale/Burnley
Turn 2: build a Canal link; build Cotton Mill in the other of your chosen pair of locations
Turn 3: build another Canal Link; take loan
Turn 4: (hopefully you're going first) take loan, sell cotton.

By doing this you can often get the first 2 distant market sales, be left with £57 funds and £3-£5 income, and significant choice of what to do for the rest of the Canal Phase.

Your opponents may try to stop you by getting an early distant market sale of their own off, but they're very unlikely to stop you from flipping at least one of those mills you've built, and they might still not stop you from flipping both.
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Ægir Æxx
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Check out 'Brass Tracks - Cost/VPs/Income Ratio'. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/35663

This helped me a lot with developing my strategy for the game.
 
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wodan wodan
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pastabatman wrote:
It seems you are neglecting the 'action cost' of devlopment. If you only build level two industries in the canal phase, that means you're spending at least 1.5 actions on each (since you can develop up to two industries per action), and leaving more build opportunities for your opponents. It seems doing all that will also require significant loans, which also have an action cost.

edit: Feel free to point out any fallacies here - I'm a noob.

The L2 Cotton L2 Port was just a demonstration. A far better strategy would be to simply develop the Ports, which require less to develop, and whose higher level versions get better Income and VPs for a minimal cost increase, while Cotton takes longer to develop, loses income at higher levels, and has a significantly higher cost per level.

Hence, if you wanted to go this strategy whole hog, you would try and get three L1 Cottons, then around four Ports of the L2-L4 range.

m_r_tyler wrote:
Iron works are dandy until your opponents realize that you are winning. There is always the risk that your level 2 and level 3 iron works will be built over. If you are playing with inexperienced players you need not worry too much because the iron demand track rarely runs out and players are usually not looking to build over opponents iron works. On the other hand, if you are playing with four players who know the value of developing early and often, the iron demand track can be exhausted multiple times and provide ample opportunity to build over others' iron works.

The players did go for the developing early and often, which was free money for me. My opponents did end up building over Iron Refineries, but they did over each other, in part because they couldn't reach my Level 4 Iron mine, and in part because they didn't believe I could win with 0 Cotton.

Themistokles wrote:
As with most 'killer strategies', you neglect the human element. If your opponents see you doing this, they'll easily block you out of popping all of the iron,

I think they did try, but it doesn't help when I used wilds to drop my Irons.

Themistokles wrote:

and snatch up all the best spots for mills, ports, et cetera, while the action cost of your development bites you in the arse.

Why would I need Cotton and Ports? I ended the game with 156 points, despite having built 0 Cotton and 2 Ports (a L1 and a L2). Oh, and I took a single 30 Buck loan the whole game, on the last turn that I could.

Themistokles wrote:

In the meantime, your income will develop 2-5 turns slower than your opponents, leaving you stranded as, for example, some bastard (like myself) builds L2+ coal mines in the southeast at the end of Canal age, pops 4 rails out of Manchester at the start of Rail age, nets an eventual 25 points on the rail alone, gathers a bunch of cash, and blocks your specific industry cards from being useful in that area.

Why would I care about that? Such has zero impact on my strategy.

Themistokles wrote:

Development? They take all the good spots while you do it.
No development? They take all the good spots when you have to do it later.

Wilds help out.

Themistokles wrote:

Mills? They block your ports and sell to foreign first.
No Mills? Where's the early development and profit coming from?

Didn't build any. Didn't need any.

Themistokles wrote:

Coal? They avoid L2 Mills for a few extra turns, and you're behind on income.
No coal? Say goodbye to good income in the Rail age.

I built Coal for the income, Iron Refinery Construction, and rails. Dropped out all save the last L4.

Themistokles wrote:

Ports? Get out-competed for profit by the Mill barons.
No Ports? Your mills will fail to sell to foreign when some bastard gets there first and you will help others up at no action cost to them.

Worked out very nicely. Since I didn't have any cotton, they ignored me as a serious threat, and I seized Shipyards before my opponents could react.

Themistokles wrote:

Iron? People delay development a little and cut you out of cash development.
No Iron? You can't develop without paying extra or helping others' progress.

Either they activate the Iron Refineries for me or give me free develops. Win win.

Themistokles wrote:

There is no perfect strategy. There is only trying for balance, displaying opportunism and reading the game better than your opponents.

To clarify, here was my strategy, though I hadn't intentionally planned on following it at first:
1. Build lots of Coal.
2. Get out 3 Irons with the Coal, or with the opponent's Coal, using Wilds if need be. Make sure one of them is a L1 so that your opponents won't be too blocked late game. I dropped L1, L2, and L4.
3. Don't get Loans, be a cheapskate. I never had money problems because I never bought anything big till late game, and as such I tended to be early in turn order and could control the game. I chose to build 2 Rails for 2 Actions and 10 rather than 1 Action and 15.
4. Get the Level 2 Shipyards out, using the Iron your opponent's didn't use to get there.

End result: 156 points, playined all but the Level 4 Coal, the L1+2+4 Irons, both L2 Shipyards, a L1 Port, and a L2 Port. My opponents were shocked.
 
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Eddie H
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wodan46 wrote:
With the exception of the Level Coal or Iron, there is virtually no reason to ever build Level 1 Industries. This is because in addition to being significantly weaker than later Levels anyways, they only score once, whereas Level 2+ Industries built and flipped during the Canal Period score twice. To give you an idea of the difference, look below:

L1 Cotton Mill+L1 Port: For 18 Money, you gain 8 Income, 3 VPs
L2 Cotton Mill+L2 Port: For 21 Money, you gain 7 Income, 18 VPs.
Sure you lose 1 Income, pay 3 more, and have to develop, but when you multiply your VPs by 6, it hardly matters.

This in turn makes Iron Refineries the best building in the game. If you get them all out during the first period of the game, for 33 Money, you get 9 Income and 45 VPs, furthermore, you most likely got some free develops, which in turn allows you to get other nice things out. The Level 4 Refinery gives the same amount of VP as the Level 2 Shipyard, even, at a fraction of the cost and with major benefits in return.

Have you played this game?
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Philip Eve
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ekh_86 wrote:

Have you played this game?


That's slightly cynical; it seems plausible (perhaps probable) that he has indeed played the game, but that his gaming group has a particular groupthink that leads to the strategy he is promoting being extremely strong.
 
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Eddie H
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Hammerite wrote:
ekh_86 wrote:

Have you played this game?


That's slightly cynical; it seems plausible (perhaps probable) that he has indeed played the game, but that his gaming group has a particular groupthink that leads to the strategy he is promoting being extremely strong.
He has posted similar strategies for Through the Ages without having played the game.
 
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Mark Tyler
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I am eager to learn new Brass strategies, so I hope you don't mind me asking a few clarifying questions.

wodan46 wrote:
Oh, and I took a single 30 Buck loan the whole game, on the last turn that I could.

Which round was that? Round 4 or 6 of the Rail Period?

wodan46 wrote:
2. Get out 3 Irons with the Coal, or with the opponent's Coal, using Wilds if need be.

What exactly do you mean by wilds? A double card play or using an industry card in a connected location?

wodan46 wrote:
3. Don't get Loans, be a cheapskate. I never had money problems because I never bought anything big till late game, and as such I tended to be early in turn order and could control the game.

How does consistently going early in the turn order help you control the game?

wodan46 wrote:
I chose to build 2 Rails for 2 Actions and 10 rather than 1 Action and 15.

How many of your 14 rail links did you build?

wodan46 wrote:
4. Get the Level 2 Shipyards out, using the Iron your opponent's didn't use to get there.

If you never had money problems, it shouldn't matter whether you can get cheap iron to build your shipyards. Anyway, if your opponents aren't using iron, all the better for you I suppose.

wodan46 wrote:
End result: 156 points, playined all but the Level 4 Coal, the L1+2+4 Irons, both L2 Shipyards, a L1 Port, and a L2 Port. My opponents were shocked.

What were your opponents' scores?

Thanks.
 
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wodan wodan
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ekh_86 wrote:
Have you played this game?

No. Why would I play such a foolish tactic? I was merely establishing that strategies oriented towards playing Level 2 Industries early are superior to ones focusing on Level 1 Industries, and Iron Refineries, by virtue of them being both a means and end for that strategy, are doubly superior, to the point that it is clearly worth it to use Wilds to play them.

If you mean whether or not I have actually played this game, I have played it 5 times, all times with 4 players, with at least one player with a higher veterancy than me each time. I came 1st, 4th, 1st, 4th, and 1st in those games, with each victory and loss getting bigger and bigger. I fear for my next game.

ekh_86 wrote:
He has posted similar strategies for Through the Ages without having played the game.

Nonsense. First, I started strategizing for Through the Ages having played it once or twice already. Second, I then played it another half dozen or so times since then. Third, when I offer strategies, I am offering them so that you can critique them to see if they can be made into a working strategy, not to show off my "unbeatable" strategies, something I have never claimed to do. I like to think unpredictably, and turn over the rocks that others ignore, trying to isolate how to exploit the mechanics of the game best.

m_r_tyler wrote:
I am eager to learn new Brass strategies, so I hope you don't mind me asking a few clarifying questions.

wodan46 wrote:
Oh, and I took a single 30 Buck loan the whole game, on the last turn that I could.

Which round was that? Round 4 or 6 of the Rail Period?

Whichever was the last one you can buy Loans in. Don't know when that is.

m_r_tyler wrote:

wodan46 wrote:
2. Get out 3 Irons with the Coal, or with the opponent's Coal, using Wilds if need be.

What exactly do you mean by wilds? A double card play or using an industry card in a connected location?

Double Card play. I used that method to get my Level 2 and 4 Irons out, one of the times playing to a city that was not connected to any other but had a coal mine in it.

m_r_tyler wrote:

wodan46 wrote:
3. Don't get Loans, be a cheapskate. I never had money problems because I never bought anything big till late game, and as such I tended to be early in turn order and could control the game.

How does consistently going early in the turn order help you control the game?

You get first dibs, preventing other players from cutting you offer and taking things you need. Due to the cheap costs of what I got (Coal, Iron, and Canals), I was able to keep relatively low on turn order most of the time, and thus was never cut off significantly throughout the whole game, grabbing both of the Level 2 Shipyards without anyone being able to stop me, as well as getting that Iron down. Furthermore, going early in turn order increases the odds that players will use your resources, seeing as they are available when needed.

m_r_tyler wrote:

wodan46 wrote:
I chose to build 2 Rails for 2 Actions and 10 rather than 1 Action and 15.

How many of your 14 rail links did you build?

All of them, I think, but I came very close to being cut off. The key thing is that I had 3 Coal Mines out at the start of the Rail Phase, and having little interest in building specific Industries, I was able to build the most valuable rails while opponents were forced to prioritize building the rails they needed to keep their cotton networks operational.

m_r_tyler wrote:

wodan46 wrote:
4. Get the Level 2 Shipyards out, using the Iron your opponent's didn't use to get there.

If you never had money problems, it shouldn't matter whether you can get cheap iron to build your shipyards. Anyway, if your opponents aren't using iron, all the better for you I suppose.

On the last turn of the Canal Phase, I developed twice, removing all the remaining Iron from my Level 4 Iron Refinery in order to get rid of the 4 L0-L1 Shipyards for free.

m_r_tyler wrote:

wodan46 wrote:
End result: 156 points, playined all but the Level 4 Coal, the L1+2+4 Irons, both L2 Shipyards, a L1 Port, and a L2 Port. My opponents were shocked.

What were your opponents' scores?

Two fo them were somewhere between 110-130, I don't remember specifically, and the last player, the only newbie, had a score in the high 90s.

solove wrote:
wodan46 wrote:
for 33 Money, you get 9 Income and 45 VPs,


I think I could guarantee that some tiles wouldn't be getting flipped for those lovely points.

Unlikely, given that few players will miss the chance to get free develops, and even if they don't, you can deplete them yourself for fun and profit rather quickly. Since Iron Refineries and Coal are cheap to build and give good income early, you won't have money problems either, so you don't need to worry about loans or other buildings.

Remember, all of your Iron Refineries combined have 20 Iron on them. You will probably deplete 4 just from the track, and you can deplete 4 a turn if need be.
 
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You were given a lot of freebees. Normally its not possible to double action wild build an iron mill because people jelously play such that they connect iron to coal with their first action and build the iron mill with their second. For some reason, probably because they didn't realize how badly it would come to hurt them or because they were stupid your opponents left you these freebees. Not only that they gave them to you very early which is why you didn't need to take a loan till later.

How many times have you played against these people? Do you play often with them? Were they all very exxperienced?
 
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allstar64 wrote:
You were given a lot of freebees. Normally its not possible to double action wild build an iron mill because people jelously play such that they connect iron to coal with their first action and build the iron mill with their second.

Since it is the canal period, you can only build one industry per city. In either case, a player built a Coal in a city containing an Iron, where-upon I grabbed the Iron using a Wild. No connections needed.

To be precise, I grabbed both Blackburn and Rochdale's Iron this way. I obtained Bolton's Iron by building a Coal in Manchester Turn 1 and doing the connection/build turn 2. I might note that another player built an Iron off my Coal in Manchester the same way, which was nice because it gave me income very early.

allstar64 wrote:

For some reason, probably because they didn't realize how badly it would come to hurt them or because they were stupid your opponents left you these freebees. Not only that they gave them to you very early which is why you didn't need to take a loan till later.

I think you misunderstand their objectives. Their concern with building that Coal was not to obtain Iron, but to have a L2 Coal out for the Railroad phase. 4 out out of the 9 places to build Coal also contain Iron, and as such, they have a good chance of building there either because it is a good spot, or because they have no other choice. Remember that unlike me they were also dealing with the hassle of getting Cotton and Port networks going. They could hardly get Cotton, Ports, the Coal for the Rail phase, AND Iron.

allstar64 wrote:

How many times have you played against these people? Do you play often with them? Were they all very exxperienced?

One was a newbie, the other two had both played at least a dozen games, which is plenty more than me. As for general experience and skill, one of them is one of the leaders of the club and has been playing at the club for over a decade, and has hundred of boardgames. The other experienced player is also a longtime regular. The newbie has been here a year and is a competent player.
 
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wodan46 wrote:
allstar64 wrote:
You were given a lot of freebees. Normally its not possible to double action wild build an iron mill because people jelously play such that they connect iron to coal with their first action and build the iron mill with their second.

Since it is the canal period, you can only build one industry per city. In either case, a player built a Coal in a city containing an Iron, where-upon I grabbed the Iron using a Wild. No connections needed.


Exactly My Point You got lucky. I've played several games and generally people rush iron every chance they get. If you were able to use a double action wild twice to build in the iron space that means someone else connected the coal there and you happen to be before anyone else who had that location. You just got really lucky in that game that your opponents gave you those opportunities to build iron one way or another. Generally in most of the games I've played if you want iron you have to get it yourself ie connect and build in the same turn cause opponents aren't willing to do it for you, Especially during the canal era where you want to build as few connections as you possibly can.

Your argument about how you use Wilds to get a lot of Iron out cheaply is analogous (albeit less extreme) to someone who says cotton is king because he had a game where he built 3 cotton mills on turns 1 and 2 and on turn 3 took a loan and sold all three to the distant market. Then when asked how he managed to connect all three to ports he answers that he only built cotton in places that his opponents had already connected to ports already.

Now this is much more extreme then your case but both essentially run off the same principle. Take advantage of what your opponents do to get payoffs for less then they'd normally cost. Unfortunately your argument about how good iron in falls apart in a game where people aren't handing out freebies to you and I'll tell you that in most games people do NOT hand them out like that. Especially since coal and links are much weaker in era 1 then they are in era 2.

I'm sorry to tell you this but your game was the exception. Not the rule.

Oh and just because, When you say
wodan46 wrote:

With the exception of the Level Coal or Iron, there is virtually no reason to ever build Level 1 Industries.

This is really only true for the level 1 ports. Level 1 cotton is superior than level 2 for the first quarter of the game because it requires no resources to build thus it can be placed anywhere if you have the location card whereas like iron all other levels can only be placed in areas connected to coal.
 
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allstar64 wrote:
If you were able to use a double action wild twice to build in the iron space that means someone else connected the coal there and you happen to be before anyone else who had that location.

Did you listen to anything I said? I specified quite clearly that I did NOT use connections built by other people, I simply built directly into Cities which already had a Coal Industry in them. The other players were building those Coals there because it was probably the best option, from the standpoint of their cards, the board position, and their plans for the rail phase. In addition to placing the Coal, they also had Ports, Cotton, and Canals to build, they were not in a position to build Iron.

allstar64 wrote:

Especially since coal and links are much weaker in era 1 then they are in era 2.

Did you listen to me at all? I said that they were building Level 2 Coals primarily as preparation for Era 2, as well as an eventual income source, and that they did NOT build the connections I would need, hence my use of Wilds. The other players were busy pursuing other things, and would've probably had to use a Wild themselves, which would be much more crippling to their action heavy strategies.
 
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Yes I have been listening to you. You claimed that people were building coal in preparation for the rail phase which implies they were building coal in rounds 7 and 8. If you were indeed going first constantly like you said this gives you 1 turn to play a wild with both your actions and develop away all the iron ignoring the fact you said you were able to do this twice.

Now if people were building coal like this in rounds 4-6 then its more believable that you were able to grab it and have the actions to develop twice on last turn before the phase ends but this leads to a scenario that's even less believable. No experienced player builds coal in Rochdale this early unless something very urgent is going on and especially if there are no connections there yet. If you want to get a coal flipped in the canal period its not a good idea to build on the edge of the board where it can be easily cut off by other coal mines especially if that part of the board isn't connected to anything and even more especially if in doing so you bring coal to an iron works that you have no chance of getting yourself. Now if it was the new player who built it in Rochdale this is more believable but hurts your statement about how iron is king.

Before you answer this can I ask you something? This club wouldn't happen to be located in a Pittsburgh College would it? This game seems familiar.

Oh and another note. I'll have a chance to test your theory since I'm currently in an online game where I was able to build all 4 of my irons by turn 6. My opponents did not aim for them and my coal was located in a good position to get them. Only 1 was a freebie that an opponent more or less gave to me.
 
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allstar64 wrote:
Now if people were building coal like this in rounds 4-6 then its more believable that you were able to grab it and have the actions to develop twice on last turn before the phase ends but this leads to a scenario that's even less believable. No experienced player builds coal in Rochdale this early unless something very urgent is going on and especially if there are no connections there yet.

The Blackburn Coal was built around rounds 4-6. The Rochdale Coal was built on turn 8 or 9. I developed it to nothing on the last turn before the rail period.

allstar64 wrote:

Before you answer this can I ask you something? This club wouldn't happen to be located in a Pittsburgh College would it? This game seems familiar.

At Carnegie Mellon. In the UC overlooking the pool. One of the experienced players has a name that starts with a V.

allstar64 wrote:

Oh and another note. I'll have a chance to test your theory since I'm currently in an online game where I was able to build all 4 of my irons by turn 6. My opponents did not aim for them and my coal was located in a good position to get them. Only 1 was a freebie that an opponent more or less gave to me.

Good luck.
 
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Okay yes I thought this game sounded to familiar to be a coincidence. That the main reason I wanted to know who your opponents were. I was the other player whose name starts with the same letter as yours.

For the record you had Bolton Rochdale and Preston. Not Blackburn. I know this for a fact because I had Blackburn and was built over there. Also when I was thinking of who to build over I know I was considering either you at Preston or someone at Manchester. From a memory point of view its more likely that I who needed to think about who to build over would remember this better than you who had already built it.

Also what you said about someone building coal in the city and you building the mill never happened. We both agree that you got Bolton on your own. It's impossible for this to happen in Preston and I know for a fact you got Rochdale cause our friend made a connection there from Oldham which had coal mines. I know this cause I was fairly surprised (and annoyed) that he left the mill open for someone to grab it easily so I specifically made a note of it.

wodan46 wrote:
allstar64 wrote:
Now if people were building coal like this in rounds 4-6 then its more believable that you were able to grab it and have the actions to develop twice on last turn before the phase ends but this leads to a scenario that's even less believable. No experienced player builds coal in Rochdale this early unless something very urgent is going on and especially if there are no connections there yet.


The Blackburn Coal was built around rounds 4-6. The Rochdale Coal was built on turn 8 or 9. I developed it to nothing on the last turn before the rail period.


I hate to tell you this but you need to get your facts strait. This is impossible because in a four player game the canal phase only lasts 8 turns making it harder to get the mills early enough to develop them away.

Before this continues can I ask you something. What exactly are you arguing.

A. Iron is the best industry and should be grabbed at any cost and chance you are able to.
B. Iron is the best industry and any strategy based around it will always win regardless of what else happens so planning to base your stratgy around iron from the start is the best move to make.
C. Something else

I think we lost track of this in the pages of posts.

 
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Brendan Mahony
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I must admit I find the comments on this thread and similar ones on

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/387694

very puzzling.

The suggestion that you play level 2s in preference to level 1s in canal phase runs pretty contrary to my experience. Playing level 2 ports of course increases the value of the iron and ships as it almost certainly takes the high level cotton out of play, but as there are so few of these to play, it hardly seems a very certain strategy for all 4 players to adopt. If someone gets to play them all they will win easily, if not ... (Possibly this explains the tendency to win big or lose big?) If everyone builds level 2 ports then that is all that will ever get built as there are only 10 port spots (and 2 may have cotton on them). This means that only about 12-14 cotton are shipped, instead of 20 odd if you build level 1 ports. To ship more cotton (say some level 4 cotton mills) you then have to build over your level 2 ports. This seems to negate their supposed advantage of paying off twice. The real advantage then is in gaining exclusive use of the spot in the rail phase. This may be important, I'm not sure.

Obviously, you should play as many iron works and ships as you can, but this is so obvious that you will find a lot of contention for the limited spots. I'd hardly say this qualifies as a strategy.

A word in favour of ports. They have great income+vp return on investment especially if someone else activates them for you. If people boycott your ports, so much the better really.

The only level 1 building I really can't stand is the coal, as it is all too easy for them not to be activated. You can't really control very well whether your coal is used as you can't build further industries in teh same city and canals don't use coal. Level 2s seem superior as they can at least provide coal for your rail network if they are not activated in the canal phase. I feel that if I have to play level 3 coals that the game is slipping away due to either low income (a goodish reason to play them is to get the instant money out of the demand track) or lack of options. Keeping lots of options open is the number one strategy in this game.

As to cotton mills, the level 2s seem to be the worst of the bunch. They have poor income return that kicks in later than level 1s would. They also have much poorer VP returns that levels 3 and 4. They are my no. 2/3 candidates for development actions, after level 1 coal and about equal with level 0/1 ships depending on the board and my hand.

 
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wodan wodan
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allstar64 wrote:
Okay yes I thought this game sounded to familiar to be a coincidence. That the main reason I wanted to know who your opponents were. I was the other player whose name starts with the same letter as yours.

Ah. I'm terrible with names though. Small world.

allstar64 wrote:

For the record you had Bolton Rochdale and Preston. Not Blackburn.

Ah. Got them mixed up, cause they are close, and I thought that I had put it in a coal city.

allstar64 wrote:

Also what you said about someone building coal in the city and you building the mill never happened. We both agree that you got Bolton on your own. It's impossible for this to happen in Preston

Actually, so long as there is a Port, you can buy Coal. Or does it have to be flipped? Was it flipped?

allstar64 wrote:

and I know for a fact you got Rochdale cause our friend made a connection there from Oldham which had coal mines. I know this cause I was fairly surprised (and annoyed) that he left the mill open for someone to grab it easily so I specifically made a note of it.

Perhaps.

allstar64 wrote:

I hate to tell you this but you need to get your facts strait. This is impossible because in a four player game the canal phase only lasts 8 turns making it harder to get the mills early enough to develop them away.

Oh... Couldn't remember.

allstar64 wrote:

A. Iron is the best industry and should be grabbed at any cost and chance you are able to.

Sort of, if you change any cost to "using a Wild", and you already have the L1 Iron out or developed. It gives you excellent VPs, a small income boost, and makes developing easier, which helps most other strategies. If you are neither going Coal-Iron nor planning to develop much, then don't bother with Iron.

allstar64 wrote:

B. Iron is the best industry and any strategy based around it will always win regardless of what else happens so planning to base your stratgy around iron from the start is the best move to make.

Sort of, its a good strategy, and while I doubt that I'd win by as much, its possible to get a good score building only Coal, Iron, and Shipyards, in addition to the connections.
 
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J
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You still haven't answered my question. What specifically is the argument your trying to make? You really didn't answer that. There seems to be like 5 different points being argued on this topic.
 
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Philip Eve
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wodan46 wrote:
Or does it have to be flipped?

It does not.
 
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