Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
16 Posts

Commands & Colors: Ancients» Forums » Rules

Subject: Double time rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Ľudovít H
Slovakia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi,

i'm little bit confused about double time card.

The 1st edition card says:

Issue an order to 4 or less foot units in a block (adjacent linked hexes). All Light units (including auxilia) may move 2 hexes and may engage in close combat. Medium and heavy units may move 2 hexes and may still engage in close combat. Warrior units may move 2 or 3 hexes, but must engage in close combat. Ordered units may not fire.
If you do not have any foot units, order 1 unit of your choice.

2nd edition card says:

Order 4 or fewer foot units in a group (units in adjacent linked hexes that may span two sections). Each ordered unit (except war machines) may move two hexes and still engage in Close Combat. Warrior units may move 3 hexes, but must engage in Close combat after doing so.
Ordered units may not have Ranged Combat.
If you do not have any foot units, order 1 unit of your choice.

The question is: what does "Ordered units may not have Ranged Combat." mean in 2nd edition? It means that i can't fire with ordered units, or that i can't order light foot units (LI, LB, LS, A) at all?

Thanks
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
France
Caen
(from Valencia, Spain)
flag msg tools
designer
My latest game: Big*Bang, a simple abstract about the first minutes of the Universe
badge
My best-rated game: TETRARCHIA, about the tetrarchy that saved Rome
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ludevik wrote:
The question is: what does "Ordered units may not have Ranged Combat." mean in 2nd edition? It means that i can't fire with ordered units, or that i can't order light foot units (LI, LB, LS, A) at all?


They cannot fire. But I agree, the sentence of 1st edition was clearer, I don't know why they changed it.

BTW, I notice that, according to 2nd edition, Warriors can move 2 hexes and not battle... I had not realized before!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edward Kendrick
United Kingdom
Redditch
Worcestershire
flag msg tools
franchi wrote:
[q="Ludevik"]
BTW, I notice that, according to 2nd edition, Warriors can move 2 hexes and not battle... I had not realized before!


I'm not sure about that. The mention of Warriors on the card makes it clear that they can move further than normal (ie 3 hexes) and must then battle, but it doesn't say that it over-rides the basic rule for Warriors, that if they move 2 hexes, they must battle.

It makes sense - it's meant to represent a mad hacking barbarian charge ...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
France
Caen
(from Valencia, Spain)
flag msg tools
designer
My latest game: Big*Bang, a simple abstract about the first minutes of the Universe
badge
My best-rated game: TETRARCHIA, about the tetrarchy that saved Rome
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Barbarossa wrote:
The mention of Warriors on the card makes it clear that they can move further than normal (ie 3 hexes) and must then battle, but it doesn't say that it over-rides the basic rule for Warriors, that if they move 2 hexes, they must battle.

The 2nd edition text makes more sense to me, "Double Time" is like the units moved (quickly) twice, that's why MI and HI can fight after their 2nd 1-hex move. Auxilia get some advantage, 1+1 and battle, and lights don't because RB said that this card is thought to give an advantage only to the rest of the units.o

So Warriors that moved 2 hexes would have moved 1+1, like their MI colleagues, no "barbarian" charge, they choose to battle. If they moved 3 hexes, this is 1+2, they moved 1 hex and then charged (must battle).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Duke
United States
Wynne
Arkansas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
While I don't find either wording confusing, there is a bit of language struggle with ranged combat. We say "shoot arrows" and "fire", although those are really terms rooted in the use of gunpowder for ranged weapons.

In neither case do I see any potential for feeling like the double time card cannot be used to order light troops, since they are specifically mentioned as being eligible to be ordered.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ľudovít H
Slovakia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
In neither case do I see any potential for feeling like the double time card cannot be used to order light troops, since they are specifically mentioned as being eligible to be ordered.


I understand "ranged combat" as the ability to shoot at range. And under the phrase "units have ranged combat" as units have the ability to shoot at range.

So for me the 2nd edition card doesn't explicitly say that i can order light units (as they 'have ranged combat'), while the 1st edition does.

But this is just language struggle;)

Thanks all for clarification

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edward Kendrick
United Kingdom
Redditch
Worcestershire
flag msg tools
Ludevik wrote:
I understand "ranged combat" as the ability to shoot at range. And under the phrase "units have ranged combat" as units have the ability to shoot at range.

So for me the 2nd edition card doesn't explicitly say that i can order light units (as they 'have ranged combat'), while the 1st edition does.

But this is just language struggle

Thanks all for clarification


I think the phrase "Ordered units may not have ranged combat" doesn't mean "Ordered units may not have the ability to perform ranged combat", but rather "Ordered units may not engage in ranged combat". In other words, there is no change from the 1st edition in this respect.

"Have combat" is a clear but slightly clumsy way of saying "fight" - if the card had meant to exclude certain units it would have said something like "may not have ranged combat ability".

It just shows how difficult it is to be perfectly clear in writing what you mean!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edward Kendrick
United Kingdom
Redditch
Worcestershire
flag msg tools
franchi wrote:
So Warriors that moved 2 hexes would have moved 1+1, like their MI colleagues, no "barbarian" charge, they choose to battle. If they moved 3 hexes, this is 1+2, they moved 1 hex and then charged (must battle).


Well, I can see that argument, though I don't think I agree with it. Once those guys got moving fast, they just had to attack somebody devil

I guess we should confirm it one way or the other via the FAQs.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
franchi wrote:
BTW, I notice that, according to 2nd edition, Warriors can move 2 hexes and not battle... I had not realized before!

I disagree. There is nothing on the card that says the Warriors do not have to attack if they move 2.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
France
Caen
(from Valencia, Spain)
flag msg tools
designer
My latest game: Big*Bang, a simple abstract about the first minutes of the Universe
badge
My best-rated game: TETRARCHIA, about the tetrarchy that saved Rome
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ludevik wrote:
Each ordered unit (except war machines) may move two hexes and still engage in Close Combat. Warrior units may move 3 hexes, but must engage in Close combat after doing so.

I'm sorry, maybe they chose the wrong wording, but to me this means clearly that they are only forced to fight if they move 3 hexes. All units (including Warriors) may move two hexes, and they removed from the 1st edition sentence following the obligation to fight when they move 2, they only state that they are forced to fight if they move 3.

RB should tell us how did he want Double Time to work with Warriors.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Rewoldt
United States
Loveland
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Miguel, while I wouldn't use the word "clearly" I do agree that the intent for the W's is that they can move 2 hexes with Double Time and not battle, but must do so (EDIT: assuming the initial or an additional target is still adjacent when it is that Warrior unit's time to battle) if moving 3 hexes.

A clear "Yes" or "No" from the designer would be nice, but I don't think it necessary. Besides - I ain't ordering a Warrior unit with Double Time and not attacking laugh

Just to be clear what I am saying:
Warriors may be ordered and move two hexes with Double Time even if not ending adjacent to a close combat target. If they move three hexes with Double Time, they must end adjacent to a close combat target and must battle that turn if adjacent to any close combat target when it is that particular Warrior unit's designated time to battle.

Try to fit that on a command card laugh
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
France
Caen
(from Valencia, Spain)
flag msg tools
designer
My latest game: Big*Bang, a simple abstract about the first minutes of the Universe
badge
My best-rated game: TETRARCHIA, about the tetrarchy that saved Rome
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Normally you want to attack with all possible units when you Double Time, but it has happened to me that one of the 4 units in the block is LI or a weak Warrior unit, for example, I want to move it together with the other 3, it ends besides a 4-step HI, and I choose not to attack due to potential battle back.

So it won't happen often, but when it does I would like to know how the card/rule should work. And I guess that if they changed the card from:

Warrior units may move 2 or 3 hexes, but must engage in close combat.

to:

All units may move two hexes ... Warrior units may move 3 hexes, but must engage in Close combat after doing so.

is because they overlooked the 2-hex Warrior move without battle in the 1st edition card. But it could be a wrong cut-and-paste too...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Rewoldt
United States
Loveland
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
franchi wrote:
I guess that if they changed the card from:

Warrior units may move 2 or 3 hexes, but must engage in close combat.

to:

All units may move two hexes ... Warrior units may move 3 hexes, but must engage in Close combat after doing so.

is because they overlooked the 2-hex Warrior move without battle in the 1st edition card. But it could be a wrong cut-and-paste too...


Could be, but I don't think so. Not that BattleLore and C&C:Ancients have no differences, but the same card in BL allows units that normally move two and must attack to move two hexes and not battle.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
France
Caen
(from Valencia, Spain)
flag msg tools
designer
My latest game: Big*Bang, a simple abstract about the first minutes of the Universe
badge
My best-rated game: TETRARCHIA, about the tetrarchy that saved Rome
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
From a correspondence with RB, he confirms that the card should be read like this:

RB wrote:
All foot units (except war machines) can move 2 hexes and MAY have close combat.
Warriors can move 3 hexes but MUST have close combat.


And, by the way, the MUST for Warriors means "if their target has not been eliminated nor pushed away previously in the combat sequence".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
franchi wrote:
From a correspondence with RB, he confirms that the card should be read like this:

Quote:
All foot units (except war machines) can move 2 hexes and MAY have close combat.
Warriors can move 3 hexes but MUST have close combat.


And, by the way, the MUST for Warriors means "if their target has not been eliminated nor pushed away previously in the combat sequence".

OK. that is clearer. Not that it should come up often, as Double Time is most often used to take the combat initiative.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter Donnelly
Canada
Comox Valley
British Columbia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
This question came up when I wanted to attack with a block of warriors that included a leader at the rear. The leader's unit had to move 2 to supply helmet hits, but couldn't get into a position to attack directly, even by moving 3. It certainly seemed logical that he should be able to keep up with the front line, and I'm glad to see this clarified.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.