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Subject: Do Ghouls keep their Special Power in Decline? Also, Seafaring Tritons Question. rss

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Jeff Thornsen
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I assume no, since when a race goes into decline you flip the Special Power tile over. But it would be nice if someone could confirm for sure.

Also, do Seafaring Tritans receive a discount towards conquering the water Regions? Or only Coastal regions?


Edit: Updated Title to reflect thread discussion.
 
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H-B-G
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Re: Do Ghouls keep their Special Power during Decline?
The rules actually say the special power tile is discarded, unless stated otherwise (e.g Spirit), so I think the answer to the question is No.

In the case of the Seafaring Tritons, the Triton bonus says it is for regions bordering a lake or sea and I don't think the seas and lake border each other, so if that is the case there would be no bonus IMO.
 
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Brad Bulkley
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Re: Do Ghouls keep their Special Power during Decline?
Faranim wrote:
I assume no, since when a race goes into decline you flip the Special Power tile over. But it would be nice if someone could confirm for sure.

Also (unrelated), do Seafaring Tritans receive a discount towards conquering the water Regions? Or only Coastal regions?


From the rules regarding decline:

"...the player flips his current Race banner upside down,
so that the grayed-out In Decline side becomes visible to all,
and discards the Special Power badge that was associated with
it as that Special Power badge is no longer in effect, unless
dictated otherwise (e.g. Spirit Special Power)."

The ghouls do not dictate otherwise, so they don't keep their special power. I don't see any races that automatically keep their special power.

EDIT: The seafaring special power lets you conquer seas and lakes, but seafaring tritons still only get the bonus for the coastal regions bordering the water, not the water itself. I think

At least that's how I understand it.
 
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H-B-G
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Re: Do Ghouls keep their Special Power during Decline?
bbulkley wrote:
Faranim wrote:
I assume no, since when a race goes into decline you flip the Special Power tile over. But it would be nice if someone could confirm for sure.

Also (unrelated), do Seafaring Tritans receive a discount towards conquering the water Regions? Or only Coastal regions?


From the rules regarding decline:

"...the player flips his current Race banner upside down,
so that the grayed-out In Decline side becomes visible to all,
and discards the Special Power badge that was associated with
it as that Special Power badge is no longer in effect, unless
dictated otherwise (e.g. Spirit Special Power)."

The ghouls do not dictate otherwise, so they don't keep their special power. I don't see any races that automatically keep their special power.

What do you mean by water regions? All regions are on land. Areas covered in water are either sea or lake; they are not regions that can be conquered. The tritons can conquer regions bordering seas or lakes at a discount.

At least that's how I understand it.


The seafaring power allows Sea or Lake regions to be conquered like land regions.
 
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Brad Bulkley
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Re: Do Ghouls keep their Special Power during Decline?
DaveD wrote:
The seafaring power allows Sea or Lake regions to be conquered like land regions.


Heh - yeah I was editing my own comment while you were entering yours
 
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Kevin Warrender
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Re: Do Ghouls keep their Special Power during Decline?
I would agree that Seafaring Tritons SHOULD get their race benefit when conquering the Sea and Lake spaces (come on, they LIVE in water), but it does not appear to be written that way. Probably need an official ruling from DoW for that. Currently, I would play they do not benefit.

Speaking more on Seafaring though, can you use that power to "enter the board" on a sea space, or does your race still have to come onto a land space? And if the answer is yes, could Seafaring Halflings enter on the lake? That would be a bit of a waste of their "hole in the ground" though.

IMO, Seafaring seems kind of weak. It's potentially an extra 3 points per turn, but to conquer all 3 water areas you have to get across the map. It does allow for easier movement around the the sides (and across the middle) of the board somewhat. Meh, tough to say until it is played.
 
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Jeff Thornsen
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Re: Do Ghouls keep their Special Power during Decline?
Heh,

Actually, thematically, it would make more sense if Seafaring and the Tritons powers were reversed. Tritons would be the only ones capable of living in the Water. And any race with Seafaring gets a discount for Coastal regions.

Also, if Seafaring is too weak, you could houserule that the 2 Ocean regions on opposite corners of the board are considered adjacent.


As for starting on the water, I don't see why not. The oceans in the corner both touch the edge of the board. Halflings would be the only ones capable of starting in the Lake, but like you said, it would be a big waste of their Hole in the Ground.
 
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Jody O
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Re: Do Ghouls keep their Special Power during Decline?
Are they freshwater Tritons or seawater Tritons?
I mean, come on, they can't be both!
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Mik Svellov
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Re: Do Ghouls keep their Special Power during Decline?
jerkules wrote:
I would agree that Seafaring Tritons SHOULD get their race benefit when conquering the Sea and Lake spaces (come on, they LIVE in water), but it does not appear to be written that way. Probably need an official ruling from DoW for that.


I see no reason for an official ruling. You should only apply rules found in the game - not what you think may apply from other games.

The rules for Tritons are perfectly clear.
 
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Kevin Warrender
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While I agree the rules are clear, I do not see the harm is asking Days of Wonder a logical question about a race benefit.
 
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Allen Doum
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Since only the Seafaring race can "attack" the sea spaces, this is not a big deal. Each one would only be attacked once, with 2 tokens, and only one token would be left there. So there would be a 1 point bonus per sea, until the Race was removed. And of course, there cannot be Seafaring Spirits.
 
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Mik Svellov
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Let's try another approach - Seafaring Tritons would be a lousy combo if they were already able to fare the seas by themselves!
 
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Donald Acker
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Faranim wrote:
Also, do Seafaring Tritans receive a discount towards conquering the water Regions? Or only Coastal regions?


Theoretically, this comes down to whether a region is adjacent to itself, and so I think does merit an official response.
 
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Alan Kwan
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I would interpret that the Triton's ability was written for the "general" case, i.e. without carefully taking the seafaring power into account, hence assuming that the water regions themselves cannot be conquered. Thus, the case of Seafaring Tritons is not covered by the rules, and we should seek an official clarification.

As for a seafaring race starting in a water region, I can't see why not, though that should very rarely make a difference, because one can simply start in a coastal region instead and then conquer the water region.
 
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Mik Svellov
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I don't see how a 'coastal' region could be 'all water' - especially not with the the additonal clarification that must be 'bordering Sea or Lake'.

No Sea or lake is bordering another Sea or Lake.

And as far as the Seafaring ablity goes, it is clearly stated that it allow you to conquer Sea and Lakes. So a player can do that as his initial conquest if the sea is is a region adjacent to the edge of the board.

Alan Kwan wrote:
Thus, the case of Seafaring Tritons is not covered by the rules, and we should seek an official clarification.


Seafaring give Tritons the same ability as every other race - as per the rules.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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While I agree that seafaring Tritons don't get a bonus to attack lakes unless a region is adjacent to itself, I don't agree it can't matter.

Consider seafaring ghouls that leave a large stack in a sea region and go into decline, staying always in the sea. Many years hence, the power stack is reshuffled and behold, seafaring Tritons arise to bring war to the legions of soggy ghouls!
 
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H-B-G
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MrWeasely wrote:
While I agree that seafaring Tritons don't get a bonus to attack lakes unless a region is adjacent to itself, I don't agree it can't matter.

Consider seafaring ghouls that leave a large stack in a sea region and go into decline, staying always in the sea. Many years hence, the power stack is reshuffled and behold, seafaring Tritons arise to bring war to the legions of soggy ghouls!


I'm not sure this would happen, the rules state that the special power badge is discarded unless it is still in effect when the race goes into decline. The Seafaring power remains in effect so it should not go into the discard pile until the declined race is removed at which time the water areas become free again.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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Hm... But isn't it true that you don't need a power to BE in a water region, you need a special power to CONQUER a water region. Otherwise the ghouls would just sink when they enter decline.
 
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H-B-G
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You cannot be in any region unless you first conquer it and you cannot conquer a water region unless you have a special power (seafaring) ergo you can't be in a water region without seafaring. The Ghouls do not sink because Seafaring is specifically stated to allow you to keep these areas after decline, also indicating that you need seafaring to keep the areas.

An interesting question in the case of seafaring ghouls, is whether they can conquer further water areas after decline, I would say Yes. In any case you would not discard the seafaring tile, so it couldn't become attached to another race, while the ghouls were still in play.
 
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Alan Kwan
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The Seafaring Tritons issue is IMO the same problem as the Flying Sorcerors or Underworld Sorcerors problem. It does not matter what the rules literally say, what matters is design intention, which is not clear because the rules appear to have been written without taking those cases into account. (Apparently the designers/developers know the Sorceror combos, but they have forgotten to address them properly when writing the rules.)

If we were to follow these printed rules literally, we'll have to abort the game the moment someone abandons a region with a Fortress, because the rules are self-contradictory, hence the game cannot continue.
 
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Alan Kwan
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My feeling is that among the existing powers, Spirit is the only one you keep the marker when declining. Seafaring and Fortified you discard; the "continuation" of those powers is indicated by the tokens in the water region, or the Fortress marker, respectively.

The rules are written to make allowance for powers introduced later.
 
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