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Subject: I still think that GtR is broken.... rss

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Mont A.
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Folks, I love GtR. It's my favorite game, and my only "10". I've logged more plays of it than any other game, it's the game I always want to end every gaming session with, it's the game I foist off on others whenever possible.

That said, I still think it's broken.

Not in terms of buildings. I firmly agree with others that almost any combination of buildings in the game can be potentially broken--and that they tend to balance each other out as a result. No, I'm fine with the buildings.

I think the game is broken at a deeper level: at the level of mechanics. Specifically, the Craftsman is just too dratted powerful relative to the Architect.

Sure, it is possible to win by relying on Architects (combined with Laborers/Legionaries, or a card such as the Sewer) to build. And there are a few buildings whose special powers make the Architect path almost worthwhile. But only a few. And that's the problem. In general, the Craftsman clearly seems to be the stronger role. And the better the players (and the smaller the game), the more this becomes the case, I think. Because experienced players are more aware of what opponents need, and so are more likely to keep those cards out of the pool by relying on Jacks to perform actions instead. The result is a relatively empty pool calculatedly devoid of anything either player can use, particularly in a game with only two or three players. And this situation just makes the Craftsman even more powerful, because using him to build leaves one less dependent on the actions of others.

Again, I'm not saying that the Architect path is always inferior to the Craftsman path. Just that it is more often inferior--too often to feel balanced.
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I see your point..., and then again maybe I don't. I think you can draw the same comparison between the craftsman role and the merchant, laborer, legionary, and patron. They all have their place, but "craftsman engines" often drive entire strategies, and if two or more players build up reserves of craftsmen, the game can snowball into a craftsman arms-race. The game never really snowballs into a patron arms-race, or a legionary arms race. These roles are crucial, though.

As for the architect, I agree that at first glance it seems like an inferior version of the craftsman. But you can use architects to deny actions to other players who are leaning on craftsman. Also, if you're going Architect-Laborer, you can use the laborers to control access to large numbers of craftsmen.

Some strategies benefit by having larger and larger numbers of craftsmen. With the right buildings, there is no ceiling. That's not true for any other role..., but I'm not sure that means they're out of balance.
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Alex G

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1) Broken, to me, implies that the problem either makes one strategy unacceptably dominant, or introduces un-intended high luck factor to a game. I don't think this does that -- it's just something smart people figure out after a game or two: craftsman >>>> architect, most of the time. I guess if you draw a ton of architect and no craftsmen there's a problem here, but it's not that bad. Is it broken that a rook is a heck of a lot better than a pawn?

2) You could use the SECRET RULE to fix it -- we haven't tried it, since changing the powers and the forum conditions seems a lot of work for something we don't mind. Has anyone tried that? Does it make architect a lot better?
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While I agree that the craftsman role is inherently stronger, I do not think that it "breaks" the game. You just need to adjust your play to compensate.

If the craftsman role is too strong, then you should not play ANY craftsman roles into the pool. This prevents the next player from playing patron to add craftsmen as clients. When your opponents play craftsmen, immediately patron them into YOUR client pool. This will encourage them to make better use of the architect. If the next player plays craftsman, then you can follow if there is few enough players so that if the player to his left plays patron, then you would get a crack at it as a client.

Because of the high level of interaction, the players should be adjusting their style to prevent abuse of any uber-roles.
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In games with less # of players, I may agree to the Craftman client being too powerful if none others are able to secure their own such clients.

In my last 5p game, I tried to get a Craft client, but had no luck whatsoever. I still patroned, and ended up getting me an Architect, Laborer, Legionnaire, and Merchant in that order.


Architect was used just so I can start 2 buildings without giving anyone with Crafts (or 2 eventually for that matter, as was the case of p3 who was 2 turns after me). Laborer became more helpful as that let me get more material to use Arch with.

Legionnaire I took just b/c there were really no other clients at the time, and Merchant was something I also got stuck with.

I built the Basilica and was able to fill get 6 material in my vault after just 2 turns (with each turn having 2 Merchant actions). I ended up getting 19pts in the vault, not counting the 2 "most" chips for 2 of the colors. The funny thing is, the guy with 2 craft clients built made crazy, getting around over 20pts+ in buildings but still lost out to me. It was a VERY interesting game.



As for me, I do enjoy Craft. I still think it's better, but it's also overrated, but still essential. The problem with Crafting is you're at the mercy of card draws. This is mitigated by having a variety of colors to build. Architect is a 2-step process with Legionnaire/Laborer + Architect, but the nice thing with this is you're directly going after the material you want, instead of just praying you draw what you need by luck


EDITs in bold. Posted in a hurry and didn't get a chance to mention everything
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Tony Chen
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Technically, they both require 2 actions to build one part. The Architect needs Legionaire/Labor into stockpile, and then Architect to spend. The Craftsman need one action to draw a card, and then one Craftsman to spend.

Advantage for Craftsman. You could draw multiple cards with one action, and you don't need to spend a card or use a client to perfrom thinking actions. Also, people can deliberately limit the pool for you.

Advantage for Architect. You get to pick what you want as opposed to drawing randomly.

I'd have to say Craftsman is better overall.
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Randall Bart
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alexd wrote:
1) Broken, to me, implies that the problem either makes one strategy unacceptably dominant, or introduces un-intended high luck factor to a game.

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That's not the only kind of broken, but that's what is meant here. In the early game, you don't have a lot in the stockpile, so the Architect is weak. If your first client is an Architect, and you play an Architect, you now need to do two Architect actions. You end up starting a lot of building but taking a while to complete them. You need Laborers and Legionaries to fill your stockpile before the Architect is effective. The game could use a tweak toward the Architect, but this imbalance is far short of broken.
 
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Paul
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I have to agree with Mont here, there are couple of more advantages that the Craftsman has, that hasn't been mentioned yet. When you have Craftsman or a couple Craftsman in your clientel, it is way better than having a couple of Architects because you can complete buildings with cards from your hand as oppose to your stockpile. As a result, you're getting more cards out of your hand in one shot, then your next "thinking" action, you are drawing more cards. This means you are cycling through the cards faster and will probably get a bigger selection of buildings to pick from. Cycling through the draw pile has a secondary effect too, it speeds the overall game. Chances are you are completing buildings faster and you want to end the game faster and using multible Craftsman actions lets you do both.

With Architects you have to: Take an Architects action to lay foundations, then use Laborers/Legionaries to collect the resources, if they are availible, then Architect again, to use the resources. That's three seperate turns.

With three Craftsman actions you complete a building and start getting the use of it in one turn or if it is a bigger building two turns, that's a big speed advantage.

Plus think about the collecting of resources here? You always know what is in your hand, but if the stock pile is thin, or others don't have what you want, or maybe they built a Wall or the Wood building that lets them block the Legionary action, you're boned.
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Tony Chen
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I don't think it's 3 to 1 like that. In your examples they were both 3 (or 4) actions. You don't have to architect, then labor, then architect. You can labor, and then architect all in one shot too. And for craftsman, in addition to crafting all in one shot, you have to spend actions thinking prior to that.

But I do agree that it's easier to think for cards then it is to labor from stockpile. For building buildings, craftsman does seem better overall.

However, one upside to having laborer and architect combo, and I don't know how useful this is, is that you can have stuff ready in your stockpile for vaulting.

Also, without any building powers, your hand is vulnerable to the Legionary, but your stockpile isn't.
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First off, HOW MANY PLAYERS IS EVERYONE PLAYING WITH? Seems this is quite a big difference. Most of mine are 4p and 5p games, but I've had the pleasure of squeezing in several 2p and 3p games as well.


Hiko Bunta wrote:
I have to agree with Mont here, there are couple of more advantages that the Craftsman has, that hasn't been mentioned yet. When you have Craftsman or a couple Craftsman in your clientel, it is way better than having a couple of Architects because you can complete buildings with cards from your hand as oppose to your stockpile. As a result, you're getting more cards out of your hand in one shot, then your next "thinking" action, you are drawing more cards. This means you are cycling through the cards faster and will probably get a bigger selection of buildings to pick from. Cycling through the draw pile has a secondary effect too, it speeds the overall game. Chances are you are completing buildings faster and you want to end the game faster and using multible Craftsman actions lets you do both.

With Architects you have to: Take an Architects action to lay foundations, then use Laborers/Legionaries to collect the resources, if they are availible, then Architect again, to use the resources. That's three seperate turns.

With three Craftsman actions you complete a building and start getting the use of it in one turn or if it is a bigger building two turns, that's a big speed advantage.

Plus think about the collecting of resources here? You always know what is in your hand, but if the stock pile is thin, or others don't have what you want, or maybe they built a Wall or the Wood building that lets them block the Legionary action, you're boned.
I too prefer Craftsman as a client, but there are other issues at hand.

Knowing what's in your hand doesn't do you any good if none of them are the cards you need. Especially in higher # of player games, you can go entire games without seeing one color, or barely of 2 other colors.

In your example, it's powerful to have 3 craft actions per turn. Problem is, if you have 3 Craft clients, chances are, no1 else will have 3 Craft clients either. In fact, I'd wager to say at best, everyone else will only have 1 Craft client at most. If people are paying attention (and if they aren't, then you truly do deserve the win), they will limit their craft actions as much as possible. Make no mistake about it, some people will craft out of desperation, e.g. they only need 2 more guaranteed actions to finish a 3-cost building, but otherwise, everyone else will be leading on different roles. Those probably help them even more, as not being able to choose craft clients meant they have other types of clients to take advantage of. In this case, let the person with 3 Craft clients do his own dirty work. In this case for a 5p game, you're still getting alot of Craft actions, but far from the 15 max per round of turns.
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mojo shivers
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ackmondual wrote:
First off, HOW MANY PLAYERS IS EVERYONE PLAYING WITH? Seems this is quite a big difference. Most of mine are 4p and 5p games, but I've had the pleasure of squeezing in several 2p and 3p games as well.


Hiko Bunta wrote:
I have to agree with Mont here, there are couple of more advantages that the Craftsman has, that hasn't been mentioned yet. When you have Craftsman or a couple Craftsman in your clientel, it is way better than having a couple of Architects because you can complete buildings with cards from your hand as oppose to your stockpile. As a result, you're getting more cards out of your hand in one shot, then your next "thinking" action, you are drawing more cards. This means you are cycling through the cards faster and will probably get a bigger selection of buildings to pick from. Cycling through the draw pile has a secondary effect too, it speeds the overall game. Chances are you are completing buildings faster and you want to end the game faster and using multible Craftsman actions lets you do both.

With Architects you have to: Take an Architects action to lay foundations, then use Laborers/Legionaries to collect the resources, if they are availible, then Architect again, to use the resources. That's three seperate turns.

With three Craftsman actions you complete a building and start getting the use of it in one turn or if it is a bigger building two turns, that's a big speed advantage.

Plus think about the collecting of resources here? You always know what is in your hand, but if the stock pile is thin, or others don't have what you want, or maybe they built a Wall or the Wood building that lets them block the Legionary action, you're boned.
I too prefer Craftsman as a client, but there are other issues at hand.

Knowing what's in your hand doesn't do you any good if none of them are the cards you need. Especially in higher # of player games, you can go entire games without seeing one color, or barely of 2 other colors.

In your example, it's powerful to have 3 craft actions per turn. Problem is, if you have 3 Craft clients, chances are, no1 else will have 3 Craft clients either. In fact, I'd wager to say at best, everyone else will only have 1 Craft client at most. If people are paying attention (and if they aren't, then you truly do deserve the win), they will limit their craft actions as much as possible. Make no mistake about it, some people will craft out of desperation, e.g. they only need 2 more guaranteed actions to finish a 3-cost building, but otherwise, everyone else will be leading on different roles. Those probably help them even more, as not being able to choose craft clients meant they have other types of clients to take advantage of. In this case, let the person with 3 Craft clients do his own dirty work. In this case for a 5p game, you're still getting alot of Craft actions, but far from the 15 max per round of turns.


Personally, when other players start getting an advantage in Craftsmen is when I start looking to going straight Laborer/Merchant. I've always been a bigger proponent of limiting the amount of buildings you build anyway. When I play I always look to get an advantage in terms of the amount of Merchants I play as clients.

While he's building, I'm placing material in my vault every 1.5 to 2 turns. And I'm still making room by following or using a client or two to craftsman as well.

As soon as I can lay any of the following buildings down with at least one Merchant in my client pool I pretty much stop taking craftsmen actions myself:

Atrium
Basilica
Coliseum
Dock
Forum
Ludus Magna
Sewer
Storeroom

Any one of these buildings is strong enough to switch over to the GTR equivalent of the Produce/Consume strategy from RFTG. Having any two buildings of those eight you can outdistance your opponents a lot in placing material into your vault. As soon as I have two I'd trying to end the game as quickly as possibly by starting each and every building that still has a site available, and doing nothing but Merchant on my own turn.
 
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mojo shivers wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
First off, HOW MANY PLAYERS IS EVERYONE PLAYING WITH? Seems this is quite a big difference. Most of mine are 4p and 5p games, but I've had the pleasure of squeezing in several 2p and 3p games as well.


Hiko Bunta wrote:
I have to agree with Mont here, there are couple of more advantages that the Craftsman has, that hasn't been mentioned yet. When you have Craftsman or a couple Craftsman in your clientel, it is way better than having a couple of Architects because you can complete buildings with cards from your hand as oppose to your stockpile. As a result, you're getting more cards out of your hand in one shot, then your next "thinking" action, you are drawing more cards. This means you are cycling through the cards faster and will probably get a bigger selection of buildings to pick from. Cycling through the draw pile has a secondary effect too, it speeds the overall game. Chances are you are completing buildings faster and you want to end the game faster and using multible Craftsman actions lets you do both.

With Architects you have to: Take an Architects action to lay foundations, then use Laborers/Legionaries to collect the resources, if they are availible, then Architect again, to use the resources. That's three seperate turns.

With three Craftsman actions you complete a building and start getting the use of it in one turn or if it is a bigger building two turns, that's a big speed advantage.

Plus think about the collecting of resources here? You always know what is in your hand, but if the stock pile is thin, or others don't have what you want, or maybe they built a Wall or the Wood building that lets them block the Legionary action, you're boned.
I too prefer Craftsman as a client, but there are other issues at hand.

Knowing what's in your hand doesn't do you any good if none of them are the cards you need. Especially in higher # of player games, you can go entire games without seeing one color, or barely of 2 other colors.

In your example, it's powerful to have 3 craft actions per turn. Problem is, if you have 3 Craft clients, chances are, no1 else will have 3 Craft clients either. In fact, I'd wager to say at best, everyone else will only have 1 Craft client at most. If people are paying attention (and if they aren't, then you truly do deserve the win), they will limit their craft actions as much as possible. Make no mistake about it, some people will craft out of desperation, e.g. they only need 2 more guaranteed actions to finish a 3-cost building, but otherwise, everyone else will be leading on different roles. Those probably help them even more, as not being able to choose craft clients meant they have other types of clients to take advantage of. In this case, let the person with 3 Craft clients do his own dirty work. In this case for a 5p game, you're still getting alot of Craft actions, but far from the 15 max per round of turns.


Personally, when other players start getting an advantage in Craftsmen is when I start looking to going straight Laborer/Merchant. I've always been a bigger proponent of limiting the amount of buildings you build anyway. When I play I always look to get an advantage in terms of the amount of Merchants I play as clients.

While he's building, I'm placing material in my vault every 1.5 to 2 turns. And I'm still making room by following or using a client or two to craftsman as well.

As soon as I can lay any of the following buildings down with at least one Merchant in my client pool I pretty much stop taking craftsmen actions myself:

Atrium
Basilica
Coliseum
Dock
Forum
Ludus Magna
Sewer
Storeroom

Any one of these buildings is strong enough to switch over to the GTR equivalent of the Produce/Consume strategy from RFTG. Having any two buildings of those eight you can outdistance your opponents a lot in placing material into your vault. As soon as I have two I'd trying to end the game as quickly as possibly by starting each and every building that still has a site available, and doing nothing but Merchant on my own turn.
My "mistake" was After I filled my vault to the max 8 influence, I completed another building, wood. I probably should've just architected and used up all the SITEs. That one extra material in my vault wasn't gonna reap maximum benefit. It was scary seeing the player with 2 craft clients get about 17+ pts in buildings alone.
 
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
I don't think it's 3 to 1 like that. In your examples they were both 3 (or 4) actions. You don't have to architect, then labor, then architect. You can labor, and then architect all in one shot too. And for craftsman, in addition to crafting all in one shot, you have to spend actions thinking prior to that.

But I do agree that it's easier to think for cards then it is to labor from stockpile. For building buildings, craftsman does seem better overall.


I think you are right, you can labor first then use two/three architect actions to get things done, depending on what is availible. My bad.

drunkenKOALA wrote:
However, one upside to having laborer and architect combo, and I don't know how useful this is, is that you can have stuff ready in your stockpile for vaulting.


If someone has the laborer and architect combo, it is reasonable to say that the craftsman player can also have laborers. In this case when laborer comes up the craftsman player can just reduce resources for others and then do some vaulting of his own. But when vaulting for the architect player he has to choose between vaulting away the resources of his stock pile or using them to complete buildings. Advantage Craftsman!

drunkenKOALA wrote:
Also, without any building powers, your hand is vulnerable to the Legionary, but your stockpile isn't.


There is a building power that attacks stockpile resources.
 
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ackmondual wrote:
mojo shivers wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
First off, HOW MANY PLAYERS IS EVERYONE PLAYING WITH? Seems this is quite a big difference. Most of mine are 4p and 5p games, but I've had the pleasure of squeezing in several 2p and 3p games as well.


Hiko Bunta wrote:
I have to agree with Mont here, there are couple of more advantages that the Craftsman has, that hasn't been mentioned yet. When you have Craftsman or a couple Craftsman in your clientel, it is way better than having a couple of Architects because you can complete buildings with cards from your hand as oppose to your stockpile. As a result, you're getting more cards out of your hand in one shot, then your next "thinking" action, you are drawing more cards. This means you are cycling through the cards faster and will probably get a bigger selection of buildings to pick from. Cycling through the draw pile has a secondary effect too, it speeds the overall game. Chances are you are completing buildings faster and you want to end the game faster and using multible Craftsman actions lets you do both.

With Architects you have to: Take an Architects action to lay foundations, then use Laborers/Legionaries to collect the resources, if they are availible, then Architect again, to use the resources. That's three seperate turns.

With three Craftsman actions you complete a building and start getting the use of it in one turn or if it is a bigger building two turns, that's a big speed advantage.

Plus think about the collecting of resources here? You always know what is in your hand, but if the stock pile is thin, or others don't have what you want, or maybe they built a Wall or the Wood building that lets them block the Legionary action, you're boned.
I too prefer Craftsman as a client, but there are other issues at hand.

Knowing what's in your hand doesn't do you any good if none of them are the cards you need. Especially in higher # of player games, you can go entire games without seeing one color, or barely of 2 other colors.

In your example, it's powerful to have 3 craft actions per turn. Problem is, if you have 3 Craft clients, chances are, no1 else will have 3 Craft clients either. In fact, I'd wager to say at best, everyone else will only have 1 Craft client at most. If people are paying attention (and if they aren't, then you truly do deserve the win), they will limit their craft actions as much as possible. Make no mistake about it, some people will craft out of desperation, e.g. they only need 2 more guaranteed actions to finish a 3-cost building, but otherwise, everyone else will be leading on different roles. Those probably help them even more, as not being able to choose craft clients meant they have other types of clients to take advantage of. In this case, let the person with 3 Craft clients do his own dirty work. In this case for a 5p game, you're still getting alot of Craft actions, but far from the 15 max per round of turns.


Personally, when other players start getting an advantage in Craftsmen is when I start looking to going straight Laborer/Merchant. I've always been a bigger proponent of limiting the amount of buildings you build anyway. When I play I always look to get an advantage in terms of the amount of Merchants I play as clients.

While he's building, I'm placing material in my vault every 1.5 to 2 turns. And I'm still making room by following or using a client or two to craftsman as well.

As soon as I can lay any of the following buildings down with at least one Merchant in my client pool I pretty much stop taking craftsmen actions myself:

Atrium
Basilica
Coliseum
Dock
Forum
Ludus Magna
Sewer
Storeroom

Any one of these buildings is strong enough to switch over to the GTR equivalent of the Produce/Consume strategy from RFTG. Having any two buildings of those eight you can outdistance your opponents a lot in placing material into your vault. As soon as I have two I'd trying to end the game as quickly as possibly by starting each and every building that still has a site available, and doing nothing but Merchant on my own turn.
My "mistake" was After I filled my vault to the max 8 influence, I completed another building, wood. I probably should've just architected and used up all the SITEs. That one extra material in my vault wasn't gonna reap maximum benefit. It was scary seeing the player with 2 craft clients get about 17+ pts in buildings alone.


I think the worst thing you can try to do in GTR is follow in somebody else's strategy when you don't have the cards for it. If somebody is trying to one-up you by outbuilding, you need to find something else they can't do or, at the very least, can't do as well as you.
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After playing lots (100+) of games, our group is split between people who feel the Architect is more powerful and those who feel the Craftsman is more powerful. I guess that means that both are fairly even!


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Hiko Bunta wrote:
drunkenKOALA wrote:
I don't think it's 3 to 1 like that. In your examples they were both 3 (or 4) actions. You don't have to architect, then labor, then architect. You can labor, and then architect all in one shot too. And for craftsman, in addition to crafting all in one shot, you have to spend actions thinking prior to that.

But I do agree that it's easier to think for cards then it is to labor from stockpile. For building buildings, craftsman does seem better overall.


I think you are right, you can labor first then use two/three architect actions to get things done, depending on what is availible. My bad.

drunkenKOALA wrote:
However, one upside to having laborer and architect combo, and I don't know how useful this is, is that you can have stuff ready in your stockpile for vaulting.


If someone has the laborer and architect combo, it is reasonable to say that the craftsman player can also have laborers. In this case when laborer comes up the craftsman player can just reduce resources for others and then do some vaulting of his own. But when vaulting for the architect player he has to choose between vaulting away the resources of his stock pile or using them to complete buildings. Advantage Craftsman!

drunkenKOALA wrote:
Also, without any building powers, your hand is vulnerable to the Legionary, but your stockpile isn't.


There is a building power that attacks stockpile resources.


Thats the bridge I believe.
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Most people on this forum think that Craftsman is more powerful, we only disagree by how much. Some say so much that the game is broken, others say not so much.
 
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Hiko Bunta wrote:
Most people on this forum think that Craftsman is more powerful, we only disagree by how much. Some say so much that the game is broken, others say not so much.
Well, my stance is that the Craftsman is more powerful/useful than the Architect, but not THAT much more so. This has changed the more and more I played the game. Even if someone has (more) Craft clients than others, it can still be anyone's game.
 
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smok wrote:
After playing lots (100+) of games, our group is split between people who feel the Architect is more powerful and those who feel the Craftsman is more powerful. I guess that means that both are fairly even!


Craftsman is more powerful early, but Architect comes into its own later (when you typically have laborers or legionaire clients as well). The one thing architect lets you do really well is finish a building without having to destroy your hand (or keep holding onto cards you'd like to ditch via Latrine etc).

Now, an early Craftsman client does often lead to a runaway victory (particularly if other players keep calling craftsman), whereas the Architect will let you pull a come from behind victory. But 'come from behind' victories are never called broken, even if they happen roughly as often.

I do think Craftsman has a slight edge, because timing is so important to the game and it helps early game timing, but it's not broken.

FYI, 50+ plays relatively evenly distributed between # of players.
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Randall Bart
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Bankler wrote:
But 'come from behind' victories are never called broken, even if they happen roughly as often.

Not entirely. People complain that Power Grid is broken because there are too many come from behind victories. Actually, it's true. If everyone tries to build as many cities as they can every turn, the player with the most cities most of the way will lose. As they say on Hee-Haw, don't do that. Politely forgo a city or three and let someone else have that doomed leader position.

But the point is taken. People want to see jockeying for the lead. GtR is supposed to have different types of games. There are quick Catacomb wins, there are Forum wins, there are even games that look like a normal progression of building from a less broken game. There are games where someone gets a lot of Craftsman clients and gets a run away lead. There are buildings which let you take the whole pool into your stockpile or clientele or draw ridiculous hands of cards. The run away Craftsman "problem" is a ridiculous broken part of this ridiculous broken game. If it were the only gun at this knife fight it would be a problem, but look under any rock and you'll find a grenade or a bazooka or a flame thrower.

If you put an Architect and a Laborer or Legionary in your clientele early, you will fall behind those who take Craftsman, but it doesn't take much for the Architect strategy to take off.
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Wow! I'm glad to see that this thread attracted so many comments on strategy. Good stuff here.

It seems the general concensus is that the Craftsman is indeed more powerful/flexible than the architect--but only slightly. Since I think the Craftsman is considerably more powerful (at least in a two-player game), that probably means I'm doing something wrong. laugh

Looks as if I may need to rethink my approach to the game.
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Brian Bankler
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Typhon wrote:
Since I think the Craftsman is considerably more powerful (at least in a two-player game),.


OK, I missed that you were talking about 2 player games.

Those are odd beasts because if you jump out to an early lead you can just start spawning buildings with no real intention of finishing them. In that case, having craftsman clients improve because you can use duplicate card to finish buildings and hope to draw the types you need.

Also, the two player game is shorter than with 3+, and craftsman (as I've noted) is a fast starter.
 
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Alex G

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I tend to get more craftsmen clients in two-player games with my wife, but I get so busy building potent stuff I often fail to pay attention to my vault. And I lose.

So I think it's more more powerful in 2-player, but this is obvious to everyone and unless someone gets great luck for tons of craftsmen (and the other almost none) then it doesn't make things quite broken.
 
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While Crafting does require fewer steps to move materials into Buildings (since they don't have to go through the Stockpile first), Architect does have its own distinctive strengths. Generally, the stuff in one's Stockpile is material that one could never have used as Buildings, since most of it will tend to come from the Pool, with perhaps a fair amount from other players' Hands. Virtually everything one uses for Crafting, though, comes from one's own Hand, and could have been Buildings or materials to build them with (or role cards, even), forcing one to make tough choices about just how to use what's in one's hand. Moreover, one doesn't get to choose exactly what goes into one's hand, meaning one can try to build a certain Building but get stuck without the materials one needs if one relies solely upon Craftsmen. One tends to have a lot more choice in what goes into one's Stockpile, though, and so someone using Architects can not only tailor their Building choices to what they have in their Stockpile, but also replenish their Stockpile inventory with an eye towards what they want to build.

As noted previously, the Architect tends to really come into its own later in the game. I do agree Craftsman is a bit more desirable earlier on, but I don't think it's quite so horrifically overpowered compared to Architect in the overall scheme of GtR.
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Eric Nielsen
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disclaimer: I was the editor for GtR.

The roles were never intended to be equally strong in all situations. In a two player game, with a first-client craftsman against a first-client architect, the craftsman has the initiative and is in a slightly superior position.

The longer the game, better for the architect. If the craftsman is sitting there with Brown+Yellow+Road+Catacombs in her initial hand, the architect is 99% screwed. The game will last five minutes.

I highly recommend using 3 of each site in 2p games once you are comfortable with the game. Architects have a fighting chance.

You may have noticed that concrete buildings aren't great first buildings...this was by design. Leading with greys is much less costly in the beginning than leading with browns. If you can legionnare rubble from your opponent, you may force him to either fish for Jacks (very expensive in 2p) or build bigger buildings (slower to finish)
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