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Subject: free will,christian judgement day, and responsibility. rss

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CHAPEL
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This is from a Christian perspective.

So God gave man free will, and a divine law that states "Though Shall not Murder, Kill, or what ever translation you believe".

And we know the Grey area of the human laws, but this question is for God's Law.

If man has free will, can he be "used" as a weapon of murder by another? When does free will and personal responsibility end, and doing what's told begin? In Gods eyes?

A gun has no free will. A stone has no free will, but man is special, he has the ability to choose. Almost a gift of responsibility.

So Can you truly use man as a weapon?

Are you for certain?

Poll
1. If I told you to go kill a certain person and you did, who do you believe would God judge in the afterlife?
Free will dictates that the man that pulls the trigger will be held responsible in heaven.
The man ordering the murder is responsible for the murder in heaven.
Both will be judged as the murderer in heaven.
2. What if I paid you to kill a certain person and you did, who do you believe would God judge in the afterlife?
Free will dictates that the man that pulls the trigger will be held responsible in heaven.
The man ordering the murder is responsible for the murder in heaven.
Both will be judged as the murderer in heaven.
3. If I was your leader/boss/etc. and I told you to go kill a certain person and you did, who do you believe would God judge in the afterlife?
Free will dictates that the man that pulls the trigger will be held responsible in heaven.
The man ordering the murder is responsible for the murder in heaven.
Both will be judged as the murderer in heaven.
      36 answers
Poll created by MWChapel
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Anyone here think that it's OK if you're in the army?
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Ken
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I'm not certain there's enough context to your questions. I mean, who's being killed? Why? If a sniper took out Hitler in 1942, do you think that sniper would be judged harshly? The commanders that gave him the order?

Not all killings are murders, either legally or religiously. So in all cases of your questions, "both will be judged," but neither may be found to be a "murderer."
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I think the Hitler scenario is pretty rare. More likely is Joe Infantry shooting Joe Infantry, or Joe Airforce bombing Sally Schoolmarm.
 
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CHAPEL
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perfalbion wrote:
Why? If a sniper took out Hitler in 1942, do you think that sniper would be judged harshly?


That is a good question. And who would be judged a murderer? The sniper that killed Hitler, or Hitler that may or may not have actually killed anyone by his own hand? Yes he "ordered" the genocide of millions.

This is a context of where my line of questioning is going.

You believe in justifiable homicide, and that is reasonable assessment in human terms. Do you believe that God also judges equal to your terms? Are you certain, or are you just hoping?
 
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And who exempted Hitler, anyway? Hitler was a man. A charismatic, dangerous, assuredly evil man, but if you believe that God doesn't want you to kill, then you don't get to kill Hitler. You get to punch him, or kick him, disarm him and incarcerate him, but you don't get to kill him. On the other hand, if you're just some shithead human being who wants to spout off what "God" wants out of one side of you mouth while the other side smirks knowingly as you ignore that knowledge?

Fortunately for us, the brilliant Isaac Asimov developed the Three Laws of Robotics which, when applied to shithead human beings work almost as well as they do for those shithead robots. (All you do is replace "robot" with "human" and drop the second law and all references to it.)

You don't need to blather on and on about "God," you just say, "Isaac said that I can't allow others to come to harm through my inaction, and whoops, the only action available now is to kill that fuckhead Hitler." This sort of thing goes very well toward justifying all kinds of stuff that God apparently told some people they shouldn't do unless they wanted to annoy him (or her.)
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Well, I don't presume to be in a position to judge the mind of God.

But yes, I do believe that if God exists, he isn't an automaton that demands strict adherence to the commandments "or else." At least, I'd hope an omnipotent being possesses nuance.

Remember - the commandment isn't necessarily "Thou shalt not kill."Many Bibles translate it as "thou shalt not murder." That's also the Talmudic view of the commandment. "Thou shalt not kill" is a very Catholic view of the commandment.
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CHAPEL
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MisterCranky wrote:
And who exempted Hitler, anyway? Hitler was a man. A charismatic, dangerous, assuredly evil man, but if you believe that God doesn't want you to kill, then you don't get to kill Hitler. You get to punch him, or kick him, disarm him and incarcerate him, but you don't get to kill him. On the other hand, if you're just some shithead human being who wants to spout off what "God" wants out of one side of you mouth while the other side smirks knowingly as you ignore that knowledge?


OR as a rational society, not follow his orders. Killing Hitler may sounded like the answer, but shoot, wouldn't it have been better if the multitude of his followers who actually went through the killings just said no?

Is he the shithead, or the weak willed who followed his orders?
 
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Oh, no question it was his followers who were the BIGGER shitheads, but I'm referring to EVERY human being as a shithead, which is, essentially what we all are. The difference between shit and brains is that we continually reconstitute the former, and keep it innovative, but the latter just stagnates inside our skulls, growing ever less susceptible to meaningful change. They are, however, formed from the same basic building blocks, i.e. "matter."
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God or no God, commandment or no commandment, my answer to "Should Hitler be killed?" is "Burn the motherfucker." And I'd be happy to accept the consequences, in this world or any other.
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mistermarino wrote:
God or no God, commandment or no commandment, my answer to "Should Hitler be killed?" is "Burn the motherfucker." And I'd be happy to accept the consequences, in this world or any other.


That is certainly a valid assertion, and one I also agree with. But this question has very little to do with Hitler, other than being a case in point.

 
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So what is going to happen when you stand at the pearly gates just to find out that your whole existence was to live life to the fullest, and to not knowingly take Gods greatest gift, which is life(including your own). And no matter what excuse you give him, you failed the single most important rule.

 
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MWChapel wrote:
mistermarino wrote:
God or no God, commandment or no commandment, my answer to "Should Hitler be killed?" is "Burn the motherfucker." And I'd be happy to accept the consequences, in this world or any other.


That is certainly a valid assertion, and one I also agree with. But this question has very little to do with Hitler, other than being a case in point.



How is that a valid assertion? I defy him to prove it.
 
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I just want to know, is killing chickens (as in chicken wings) included in this? And, does a stripper constitute coveting if she's married but is willing to give it up for $20? And, is spending the day on XBox Live included in honouring the Sabbath? I'd like to jump ahead to the fine print.
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isaacc wrote:

I just want to know, is killing chickens (as in chicken wings) included in this? And, does a stripper constitute coveting if she's married but is willing to give it up for $20? And, is spending the day on XBox Live included in honouring the Sabbath? I'd like to jump ahead to the fine print.
.


I don't know? Do chickens have a soul? Tasty tasty soul...But maybe they do?
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MWChapel wrote:
isaacc wrote:

I just want to know, is killing chickens (as in chicken wings) included in this? And, does a stripper constitute coveting if she's married but is willing to give it up for $20? And, is spending the day on XBox Live included in honouring the Sabbath? I'd like to jump ahead to the fine print.
.


I don't know? Do chickens have a soul? Tasty tasty soul...But maybe they do?


I hope not, because just from my tally, Heaven is going to be freakin' messy.
.
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MWChapel wrote:
isaacc wrote:

I just want to know, is killing chickens (as in chicken wings) included in this? And, does a stripper constitute coveting if she's married but is willing to give it up for $20? And, is spending the day on XBox Live included in honouring the Sabbath? I'd like to jump ahead to the fine print.
.


I don't know? Do chickens have a soul? Tasty tasty soul...But maybe they do?


Tasty tasty soul soup for the soul.

-MMM
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MisterCranky wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
mistermarino wrote:
God or no God, commandment or no commandment, my answer to "Should Hitler be killed?" is "Burn the motherfucker." And I'd be happy to accept the consequences, in this world or any other.


That is certainly a valid assertion, and one I also agree with. But this question has very little to do with Hitler, other than being a case in point.



How is that a valid assertion? I defy him to prove it.


I went back in time and did the deed, being careful to ensure that the results spun off into an alternate timeline, so that I could then come back into this one and have this discussion.

In the other timeline, the alternate me died a few days later of a heart attack while having some really great sex with a smokin' hot stripper. All God said to alternate me was, "Nice work, man." Not sure whether he was referring to Hitler or the stripper.
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"Thou shall not kill/murder" is pretty plain. The whole "throw the first stone" thing is pretty plain also.

From the Christian perspective, there shouldn't be any wiggle room. You aren't worthy to judge your fellow humans, only God is. You can try to save people by removing them from harm's way, but you are supposed to do it without causing harm yourself. If you take judgement onto yourself and kill someone, you may be interfering with God's plans. I don't think that bodes well for you when you have to report for legitimate final judgement. In other words, if God tests you with an opportunity to judge someone and kill them, I think the guidelines are clear, it's not for you to judge.
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MisterCranky wrote:
Oh, no question it was his followers who were the BIGGER shitheads, but I'm referring to EVERY human being as a shithead, which is, essentially what we all are. The difference between shit and brains is that we continually reconstitute the former, and keep it innovative, but the latter just stagnates inside our skulls, growing ever less susceptible to meaningful change. They are, however, formed from the same basic building blocks, i.e. "matter."


I love you, MisterCranky.

God obviously didn't include battle in "thou shalt not murder" as he sent Israelites into battle for conquest often enough.
Whether all war-time killing is battle is another question.

I answered the poll like a guy, translating "i think this is most likely" into a black-and-white answer. But really, I don't know, and it is not my place to know. If I were in charge of judging mankind, I'd kill myself to escape the torment, and then who would judge me for that?
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I love you right back, jessitron, and I should have written your name in on the RSP Shots poll, but I was more afraid of your husband than of BatGirl's.
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MisterCranky wrote:
I love you right back, jessitron, and I should have written your name in on the RSP Shots poll, but I was more afraid of your husband than of BatGirl's.


Ah, don't worry, he's not the jealous type. Lord knows we'd never get along if he were.
Oh, and I was sad you weren't named in that poll, too. not that it hurt my feelings to pick Dar, but I looked for you first
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jessitron wrote:
MisterCranky wrote:
I love you right back, jessitron, and I should have written your name in on the RSP Shots poll, but I was more afraid of your husband than of BatGirl's.


Ah, don't worry, he's not the jealous type. Lord knows we'd never get along if he were.
Oh, and I was sad you weren't named in that poll, too. not that it hurt my feelings to pick Dar, but I looked for you first


Always the bride's maid, never the bride...... cry

Darilian
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jessitron wrote:

Ah, don't worry, he's not the jealous type. Lord knows we'd never get along if he were.
Oh, and I was sad you weren't named in that poll, too. not that it hurt my feelings to pick Dar, but I looked for you first


I just figured he'd be there doing shots with us, and by the time we were all drunk he'd try to show me wrestling moves and further damage my already jury rigged spine.
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MisterCranky wrote:
jessitron wrote:

Ah, don't worry, he's not the jealous type. Lord knows we'd never get along if he were.
Oh, and I was sad you weren't named in that poll, too. not that it hurt my feelings to pick Dar, but I looked for you first


I just figured he'd be there doing shots with us, and by the time we were all drunk he'd try to show me wrestling moves and further damage my already jury rigged spine.


More likely dance moves. It may have the same effect.
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