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Subject: Being Rediculed While Teaching And Playing? rss

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Gerald Ko
Singapore
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Hi guys,

I am not sure if anyone encounter the same problems as I have in the list below:

1. Me teaching a game and friends not paying attention and blaming me for not explaining to them properly during game play

2. I get sarcastic remarks when missing out a rule half way through the game. They will say things like,"Oh, why didn't you tell us earlier, so now how are we going to win the game?" Or "It's your game how can you not know this rule/s" Or "Oh, you are keeping this rule from us so that you can win, right?"

3. Friends complaining that the game is too long when in actual fact they are yappin and stratagizing for too long.

I own all the boardgames that my group plays, and I bought these games because I think they are fun and would like to share it with my friends, but now I feel that I have to make them happy so that they will play these boardgames with me. I'm not sure whether am I sick in head or suffering from an inferiority complex, but that's just the way it is now; Want to play boardgame with friends? Then I have to buy games that They like.

I'm seriously really tired of my friends taking a piss at me whenever I intro a new boardgame. My friends are as follows:

2 willing friends who goes with the flow.

1 friend who will complain if a game takes too long;can be a tad sarcastic at times

1 sarcastic friend who will take a piss at you at every oppurtunity

1 rule lawyer friend who will scrutinize the rules, but will only quote on your verbal explaination, will never bother to read the rulebook. Will on occasion tagteam with sarcastic friend.

Mind you I can handle sarcasm quite well, I am not really a petty person, but there is so much one can handle. I don't mind answering countless rule clarifications and the ocassional sarcasm during gameplay is fine or with games that pit you against another player, but sarcasm during a co-op game??

LOL, you guys must be thinking I'm a nut job, but I just want to hear what advise you guys can give. I'm nearly to the point of giving up boardgaming.

Thanks for reading my frustration.
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Steve
United States
Flagstaff
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Unfortunately you are trying to force people who are not boardgamers and are not into boardgames to play them with you. It sounds like they are humoring you. You need to find a group of people who like boardgames.
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Shane Is Board
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Nope, you're not a nutjob at all, fact is that some people just aren't fun to play with; it's different for everybody, some people will give you a hard time no matter what, some you can play certain games with, it all comes down to figuring out who is who and what to do about it.

For advice, I'd say with your two friends who go with the flow, don't shy away from them with games; if the others are so bad that you can't stand playing with them, then don't, just play games with the two friends who like it and are willing to bear with you.

Another possible way to help (if you keep playing with all your friends) is two things; one, whenever you're playing/learning a new game, make sure to stress that this is a learning game, and to just worry about learning the game and enjoying it, not about winning; setting up that expectation can be surprisingly helpful.

The second thing that may help is how you teach a game. Personally, I like to give the rules in advance and then go, answering questions as need be, but some people just can't or won't focus on it, so might be better to teach them the overall idea of the game and a few rules to get started, and introduce more rules as you go so they can pick it up a little at a time...since it's a learning game, people are usually more open to that as well.

Another thing that can be immeasurably helpful is to print out a cheat sheet of rules for every game you're going to teach to hand out, so that they hopefully don't have to ask so many questions and can reference that. There are many such files on the geek here you can download and print out, or make your own if that suits you better

Worse comes to worse, just don't play with the friends who don't like games or are jerks about it; I don't like to not include people, but some people just aren't interested or fun to play with.

Good luck!
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Gerald Ko
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Not entirely true Steve, some of them do ask when is the next gaming session, and some of them do like boardgaming. I must admit that some games in my collection are not their cup of tea, but you have to play it first before you know whether is it a game for you right?
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Wei Jen Seah
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I think you might need to recheck the definition of "friend"! devil
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Gerald Ko
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Hey Shane, I don't mind making the effort to print the reference sheets for them, but for them to bother reading these print outs is another thing. I forgot to mention that some of my friends do not have a good grasp of the english language, especially my sarcastic friend. (I come from a mutli-racial and language country). I think it boils down to mutual respect.
 
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Martin
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Focus on the games they already know how to play and don't introduce anything new for a long time.
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Gerald Ko
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lol, bo pian lah Jen Seah,

1 go with the flow friend I knew since secondary school

the other go with the flow friend I knew since Uni

Complain game long friend and rule lawyer friend are my childhood friends.

Sarcastic friend knew for only for 3 years.

And I know which friend you will be suggesting to drop. devil
 
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Eugene
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sparticus75 wrote:
My friends are as follows:

2 willing friends who goes with the flow...[and others]


Consider playing games with just these two. Many, many games are best with exactly three.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/13425
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/18333

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Kevin Whitmore
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Do your friends have fun playing games with you? If so, keep doing it, and only introduce a new game if you really want to put up with the abuse.

If strategy games aren't fun for all of your friends, consider trying something different. Maybe some darts or billiards while you socialize would be more fun?

Friends are worth keeping. Just find the ight activity for ALL of you to have fun. (This includes you.)
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Kelley E.
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itsmarty wrote:
Focus on the games they already know how to play and don't introduce anything new for a long time.


I would agree with this. I am tempted to introduce new games to my friends since they are new to me and I want to play. However I know that they have not even had a chance to get good at the one we played last time. I'm ok jumping around but not everyone is.

For your group I would agree with Shane. Have them start out with basic rules and tell more rules as you play. This way they cannot give you attitude for not telling all rules because it is the plan
 
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Gerald Ko
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Yes Kevin, they have alot of fun, from mocking me. Please don't get it wrong. These friends of mine like playing boardgames and will definitely rise to the occasion when called to play. It just their attitude during the game sessions that bother me. Maybe I should lay some rules of etiquette before we start?
 
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Greg Jones
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sparticus75 wrote:
I own all the boardgames that my group plays, and I bought these games because I think they are fun and would like to share it with my friends, but now I feel that I have to make them happy so that they will play these boardgames with me.


You do. Board games are a social activity. You have to consider everybody's interests.

I'm not saying you should buy games they'll like. Maybe you could try to get them to buy some.

It sounds like they like playing games well enough, but not learning rules. Fortunately, there is a solution. Play games more than once. That means there's much more playing than learning rules.

Show them your new game, but let them decide if they want to play an old one instead. Yes, this means you don't get to play every new game. Sometimes it should be your turn to choose the game. Most of the time, let others pick.
 
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Gerald Ko
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Well Kelley, I agree with Shane too, but I mean we are all intelligent adults and when a new game is introduced, isn't it a fact that is a learning session?
 
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Sifu
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Everyone knows someone who "seems" to enjoy playing games, who says he (and yes, it's a "he") likes playing games, but who is basically an devil sauron devilanytime he plays a game.

Here's an interesting test: play a game that this person or persons knows very well. Play it. Are the sarcastic comments still there? Then don't play games with him/them anymore. Go bowling, go surfing, drop bits of garbage in the street (I've heard that's high adrenaline fun in Singapore), whatever. Sure, you can still maintain your relationship. But why suffer through the games?

On the other hand, if everyone plays known games enjoyably then just play known games with the whole group. Reserve the deliciousness of new games only for the really cool people who *like* playing new games.

Good luck, man.
 
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Shane Is Board
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I used to bring almost entirely different games to each weekly gamenight and I loved it, trying out new games all the time and getting to play them.

Then, a friend pointed out that he was sick of having to learn a new game every time we played, and I had honestly never even considered that because to me I loved learning new systems. I take a modified approach now, and it works well; always, always, always bring at least one game (better to bring at least two) that people already know well and enjoy, and also bring some new games, so that there is a choice; repetition of games will have rules learned better, and even better than that give you better competition
 
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Shane Is Board
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sparticus75 wrote:
Well Kelley, I agree with Shane too, but I mean we are all intelligent adults and when a new game is introduced, isn't it a fact that is a learning session?


Yes and no; some people, even if they're just learning, immediately think they must bend the game to their will and be good at it or they will hate it or be mad about it. It's surprising how setting up the expectation beforehand of stressing it's a learning game and that winning doesn't matter can make such a big difference.
 
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Gerald Ko
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morningstar wrote:
You do. Board games are a social activity. You have to consider everybody's interests.

I'm not saying you should buy games they'll like. Maybe you could try to get them to buy some.

It sounds like they like playing games well enough, but not learning rules. Fortunately, there is a solution. Play games more than once. That means there's much more playing than learning rules.

Show them your new game, but let them decide if they want to play an old one instead. Yes, this means you don't get to play every new game. Sometimes it should be your turn to choose the game. Most of the time, let others pick.


In true fact Greg, I AM buying games that I think that they'll like just to get them to the table. I also have shown them my game collection and not once have they said,"Woo, that game looks interesting, can we have a go?"

Sifu wrote:
Here's an interesting test: play a game that this person or persons knows very well. Play it. Are the sarcastic comments still there? Then don't play games with him/them anymore. Go bowling, go surfing, drop bits of garbage in the street (I've heard that's high adrenaline fun in Singapore), whatever. Sure, you can still maintain your relationship. But why suffer through the games?


So what becomes of my boardgame collection once I go bowling, surfing? Failed investment?


Shane Sather wrote:
Yes and no; some people, even if they're just learning, immediately think they must bend the game to their will and be good at it or they will hate it or be mad about it. It's surprising how setting up the expectation beforehand of stressing it's a learning game and that winning doesn't matter can make such a big difference.


Gonna give this idea a try in my next session. Will see how it goes. Thanks.
 
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Kelley E.
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sparticus75 wrote:
Well Kelley, I agree with Shane too, but I mean we are all intelligent adults and when a new game is introduced, isn't it a fact that is a learning session?


Different people have different approaches. I tried to introduce a new game to a group of 5 intoxicated people. 3 wandered off after the reading of the rules and 2 stuck with me. We all knew we were supposed to be playing a learning game but we were all playing to win anyway. Luckily neither of them were feeling snarky and didn't make a stink when I re-introduced a forgotten rule.

However, if you take the approach that rules will be introduced gradually then it is guaranteed to be a learning game. Previous turns become irrelevant when the rules change.

I don't know how you remind them of the rules but perhaps a different approach during the learning game? During a learning game if a rule is broken I will make exceptions. If someone has already made their move I will say "ok this time, but the rule is .... for next time". This more flexible implementation is less confrontational.
 
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Gerald Ko
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xeromist wrote:
If someone has already made their move I will say "ok this time, but the rule is .... for next time". This more flexible implementation is less confrontational.


Hah, I do that all the time, and this is the time my sarcastic friend will start his ranting."Why didn't you say it earlier, Does it really matter if I can use it now?, I could have gotten the upper hand earlier in the game if I knew about this earlier,blah blah blah.." you get my drift.
 
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T. Nomad
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3 things you could try:

1. While explaining rules, ask clarification questions. That way, everyone gets to hear the more difficult rules twice (once from you and once from the answerer), and no one will ever again say "you didn't tell us that!"

2. When introducing a new game, always agree to play a 15-minute intro game to get mechanics settled, then wipe the board and start the real game.

3. Tell the friends who are shitheads during rule explanations that you enjoy their friendship and will play basketball, go to movies, and go camping with them, but no more boardgames.
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Ludwig Seitz
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Since you say those guys are friends, try and tell them what is disturbing you. Perhaps they just haven't noticed how annoying their behaviour is, and if they are real friends (as opposed to buddies), they might make an effort to make you feel better.
 
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Phil
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It is a tough subject.

What are your options with a new board game?
a) send everyone the rules (PDF?) before you play so they can prepare
b) before playing explain every kind of rule
c) explain the main mechanics and then play

Problems with:
a) it is hard to remember the rules or understand them if you don't have the board and tiles in front of you. Even then it is not as easy as getting them explained while playing because you might not have the slightest idea of the game mechanics yet, about strategies and might evaluate the different rules and possible actions from.

b) you will forget rules, the players will forget rules, everyone will be pissed if this will be to their disadvantage. Also it may take too long so that everyone will be bored.

c) The same as b) but you should explain while playing. This requires that you have a good knowledge of the rule and are willing to advice your fellow gamers with rules and possibilities that may be to your own disadvantage.



My approach: Tell everyone of the new game a week before we play it and give them the possibility to read them beforehand, if they are available online that is.
Then setup the board while explaining the goal and core mechanics. Then start a introduction game which only takes some minutes where we play with open hands and as good as no strategy.

Afterwards a complete game will be played but we will give each other advice and hand around the rule book so everyone has time to find new rules or check on unclear stuff if it is not his turn. It is still a slow pace and we miss some stuff but we improve our play and the third play works really nice most of the time.

The main point is that everyone should know what to expect of that evening. You can't come up with a new game and expect a perfect game with as much depth as those players have who play it for over a year. And that should also be clear to your fellow gamers. Also don't be the only one who cares about the rules. Toss the responsibility to someone else every now and then. Just hand them the rulebook. Also while it may be tempting to use a just found rule to your own advantage without telling anyone before using it: don't do it.
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Kent Reuber
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I make summary sheets for games that I want to teach. I find that many people (including me) aren't good auditory learners; they may need to see rules written down. The other thing that summary sheets help with is that you won't forget little fiddly rules. And players can refer to them during the game when it's not their turn.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/13502

Stuff I put on the sheets:

1. How to set up. Who goes first?
2. Game end conditions; victory conditions.
3. Player turns. What can you do? What are your options?

I find that my summary sheets are about 1/4 the size of the rules. So, an 8 page rule book will end up being about 2 pages. Many Euro games will fit on a single page.

Games I've done summaries for: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/26620
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Bill Eldard
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garysax wrote:
Unfortunately you are trying to force people who are not boardgamers and are not into boardgames to play them with you. It sounds like they are humoring you. You need to find a group of people who like boardgames.


I'd say that's a pretty good assessment.

Since the OP owns all the games, it's merely a matter of moving on. Those who are truly interested will follow.



 
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