Recommend
29 
 Thumb up
 Hide
143 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » BoardGameGeek Related » BGG.CON

Subject: Children of the Co(r)n: Why can't i bring my well behaved >12??????? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
james napoli
United States
Westwood
New Jersey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The topic of kids and the con come up every year, in the past i've been honestly too afraid to get involved in the conversation, but after three conventions and hopefully enough of you have met me in person to know i'm mostly a friendly fellow i figured i would speak up.

People love their kids, and of course they should, i'm sure my parents thought i was a Gods Gift To Everyone...as one's parents should and any offspring that I may have unknowingly sprung are likely the heads of their class and are amazing. But that doesn’t mean your wrong...

BGG.con doesnt really seem a place for kids(people/adults/gamers curse and drink at bgg.con), and i don't think that parents should subject their youths to other gamers. I was involved in more than a handful of awkward situations where kids behaved...well like kids during the past three cons. The most painful of situations was a neighboring table where a youth decided to quit what is a 4-5 hour game midway through...after someone had taken their precious con time to explain the rules to him. other examples i have seen are kids that play sporadically and thus prevent a game from being competitive(some adults obviously do this too, but I would at least feel comfortable telling them so).
Many gamers take bgg.con as holiday, and it's fairly a expensive weekend of gaming, much too valuable to have to endure what i feel is moderate baby sitting of other gamers children.

While a fair number of adult gamers have no problem gaming with said youths(believe it or not i'm in that camp), i still don't think it's fair and would go so far as to say that if u bring a child under 18, you should be prepared to play every game with them.

Lastly i don’t want to speak for anyone, i've heard this sentiment from a lot of gamers once they felt comfortable they weren’t going to be deemed anti child and am posting this as much for them as for myself.

There I’ve said it... i expect a fair amount of residual flack, so feel free to um...disagree.
55 
 Thumb up
2.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chaddyboy
United States
Olathe
Kansas
flag msg tools
admin
designer
Bloooooop.
badge
Bluuuuuurp.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
darlok wrote:
While a fair number of adult gamers have no problem gaming with said youths(believe it or not i'm in that camp), i still don't think it's fair and would go so far as to say that if u bring a child under 18, you should be prepared to play every game with them.


While I would rather we didn't allow kids under 18 period, this is pretty much my exact feeling if we are going to allow them. There are too many awkward situations that arise when the parent isn't around to set their kid straight.
28 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rik Van Horn
United States
Livonia
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Every negative about kids mentioned here, I've seen done by adults as well.
If the kids don't do anything worse than their adult counterparts, I'd say deal with it the same way we do with adults, usually just suffer in silence and avoid games with them again.
If the child is being outright disruptive, get a con official to page the child's parents and demand his removal at once.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Quijanoth
United States
Crown Point
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
darlok wrote:


BGG.con doesnt really seem a place for kids(people/adults/gamers curse and drink at bgg.con), and i don't think that parents should subject their youths to other gamers.


I hate to pick a single statement out of a post and then comment on it, but it sounds like at least part of your argument is that kids shouldn't be around adults who act like kids? Am I reading that right?

Look, if I took my kids to a con (I have, actually, Gen Con and Wizard World a couple of times), yeah, I'd be inclined to say they should be supervised by me or my wife. And I know all the arguments about prior restraint and all that business, so, no need to remind me of that.

That said, weren't we all 12 year old gamers at one point? Didn't our hobby spawn from our childhood love of D and D, or ASL, or Magic Realm, or whatever? Isn't it a sad and grim commentary on our (I emphasize OUR) hobby that wants to cut our future brothers-in-gaming out of fantasy world we helped create?

Keeping an eye on one's children is undoubtedly the parents' responsibility...I grok that. But has it been so long since we were starry-eyed youths looking over the B.O.-reeking shoulder of some wild-eyed Grognad hoping to just see and learn and enjoy by proxy a huge gameboard and a million tiny cardboard chits that we want to deny that experience to little Timmy or Jessica? Hey, maybe I'm romanticising things a bit, and I could be wrong...but I think it is sort of our geeky duty to nourish those seedlings and remember what got us interested in gaming in the first place.

Just a thought...
42 
 Thumb up
0.28
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
norman rule
United States
Columbia
Maryland
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rokkr wrote:
If the child is being outright disruptive, get a con official to page the child's parents and demand his removal at once.


Hmmm.... having to page the child's parents? That implies that parents are leaving their minor children unattended in a room full of strangers? Possibly for hours on end while the parent is playing their own game? And maybe in a city the child doesn't know?

This has potential for tragedy. No one is going to stop the kids from leaving a table. No one is going to make sure they don't wander off to public areas of the hotel. No one is going to prevent them from leaving the hotel to go grab a soda.

I worked the hospitality suite at a convention many years ago. During a slow period, there were a few adults in the room talking, and two kids running around making a nuisance of themselves. After 15 minutes of disruption, I asked the adults to please control their children. "They aren't our kids. We just came in to relax." Mom had gone off to do her own thing and dropped them off for us to watch... without telling anyone.

That was in a "kindler, gentler" time, so we just called security. If it were to happen today, I would be calling the police to take custody of the children and to have a nice conversation with the mom. This isn't in the spirit of "let's get mom in trouble." This is a realization that the world can be a dangerous place for unattended children of any age.

Sorry... this is an area that just pisses me off. Parents should not expect other people to watch their kids, nor should they expect other people to put up with poor behavior from their kids.

Ok, getting off the soapbox now.
19 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Guest Starring...
Austria
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
mrorwell wrote:
That implies that parents are leaving their minor children unattended in a room full of strangers?

Anybody who was never left unattended by their parents in a room full of strangers, please raise your hand. Hello? Anyone? Hello?

Come on, I can understand being annoyed by out of control kids. That - like being left unattended by our parents back in the day - is something that's happened to all of us on occasion. But calling the cops seems just a wee bit over the top to me.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Australia
Sebastopol (Ballarat)
Victoria
flag msg tools
That's Karl on the left. Eternity on the right.
badge
I love Melissa, but don't tell her. It's a secret if she can find this. Shhhhh....
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't see the problem with kids at the con...

...as long as they're on a leash. ninja
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JessA
United States
Southwestern
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
That's MRS. McFoxFace to you!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
darlok wrote:

There I’ve said it... i expect a fair amount of residual flack, so feel free to um...disagree.


It's been my observation that people get blasted for even suggesting that kids should be allowed, so I don't think you should be too worried about voicing this point of view.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Cooper
United States
Lewisville
Texas
flag msg tools
Ask me how I got this badge early!
badge
Dexterity Games Guy for BGG.Con / GeekCoin # 318030
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There was a young man (around the tween years) at the con last year that soured me on this issue. He'd been left alone and apparently nobody would play with him. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and played a dexterity game (RattleSnake) with him, and he was okay for the first game or two, then all of a sudden things changed. He preferred to play with the pieces instead of paying attention, and for some reason, I started having the worst luck. I chalked it up to the table not being even. I lost that game, and the next. I finally figured out that Junior was not only cheating (he was putting some of his extra magnets under the table to disrupt the game), he admitted it and thought it was funny that I hadn't caught him until he said so.

I packed up the game in the middle of our play and told him I didn't play with cheaters.

If you recognize this kid as yours, leave him at home.
44 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rik Van Horn
United States
Livonia
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's funny how times change. When I was 13, I babysat other people's children, including infants.

I was good enough at it, I commanded top rates and often babysat two family's children at the same time for double pay.
I made about $2,000 a year for 5 years. This was in the 60's. The money went into my college fund.

The problem with lumping all children under one description is the same as doing it for adults.

It doesn't work. If adults act childish, we have methods to deal with them, the same should apply to children.
And no, letting your child play on their own if he or she is 12 or older and you know them to be responsible is not the horrible crime Mr. Soapbox seems to think it is.

As a parent with grown children, I understand the urge to protect. But parents also need to cultivate trust in their children.
We can't protect them from every evil in society, merely take reasonable actions.

Leaving your child at a convention of gamers is not the equivalent of turning him loose in Times Square, not even close.
In fact it's a reasonable action.
20 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
norman rule
United States
Columbia
Maryland
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
E Decker wrote:
Anybody who was never left unattended by their parents in a room full of strangers, please raise your hand. Hello? Anyone? Hello?


Yeah, me too... Like I said, those were simpler times. If the cop pulled somebody over for drunk driving, they said "can you make it home safely?" and sent them on their merry way. If they couldn't drive, they took them to the station, fed them black coffee till they sobered up and then sent them home. Sleeping infants were left in car seats while mom went in to the beauty parlor and in all likelihood, all of the beauticians and customers gathered at the window of the shop to say "Ah, isn't she sleeping so peacefully," before getting back to work. Bacon, eggs, sausage and pancakes were considered a great way to start the day. Cigarettes made you look cool. The world is a much different place than it used to be.

E Decker wrote:
But calling the cops seems just a wee bit over the top to me.


::shrug:: Ask the police if it's over the top. Personally, I would much rather say "Yes officer. I'm the one who called. They are sitting in the back of the room." than "Yes Officer, they were here but I didn't see them leave."
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
norman rule
United States
Columbia
Maryland
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rokkr wrote:
And no, letting your child play on their own if he or she is 12 or older and you know them to be responsible is not the horrible crime Mr. Soapbox seems to think it is.


You read my post the wrong way... this wasn't an indictment of kids... it was an indictment of parents who use convention staff and game masters as baby sitters.

I've been to many a science fiction convention where mom drives up at noon, 2 teens jump out of the car and mom drives off... and the kids are still there at midnight.

If the parent is there at the convention... taking the time to check in with the child, or better, playing nearby, it's a great situation. But if the parent says "Here's money for when you get hungry. Go play a game, I'll be here for the next 4 hours playing this game," then it's not a great situation.

Maybe your 14 year old IS very responsible... but she IS, ultimately, your responsibility. Parents who put the convention staff or the game masters in involuntary loco parentis are the problem.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Collett
United States
Shawnee
Kansas
flag msg tools
OOhhhhh.. Da Red Snappa! Veeerrry tasty!
badge
You sooo stupid!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Personally I think people are missing the point entirely here. It is one thing for a parent to ask their kids to hang out outside the bathroom while they go in for a few minutes. It is another to just leave them unattended with the majority of people they don't know for several hours. To me, a 12 y/o should be able to hang out in a location for several minutes and behave while the parent(s) take care of whatever they need to do.

To me (and I have children mind you), the kids need to stay with the parents unless they are 16 or older. The kids need to be at the parents table if the parents are playing a game.

I don't feel it is right to leave out kids from coming to this. A few bad apples shouldn't spoil it for everyone. So many things seem to be taken away from kids these days so that it doesn't disrupt people that it seems totally wrong to take them away from something like this.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cwissy
United States
Maine
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
How about any possible legal troubles that can arise from an accident involving a child? In a time where litigation is fast becoming the response to everything, I would be worried about the possibility of being accused of negligence or something worse -- even if the parent in question was the irresponsible party and left their child unattended at a game table and went off to do something else.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Alvarado
United States
Fontana
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Have everyone sign a BBG.con expectation contract.

1. Be nice
2. Be curtious
3. Limit swearing to once every other minute.
4. Bathe
5. No leaving games early unless you have the permission before the game,or a replacement? I have played several games where the replacmement player was better then the origninal and made the game more interesting. Plus if a player wants to leave, sometimes they don't play as expected. But it is much better then having a void.
6. Have designations on badges. Learning, Veteran, Teacher
7. Will stick out any game signed up for.


ETC, I'm sure this list can be as big or as small as you would like.
But I would say don't exclude minors as a group. Let them provide evidence, write an essay on why they should be allowed to attend sign a contract do a dance, stand on thierhead.


Make sure they are not there because they had nothing better to do. People who want to be there are more likely to agree to extra rules regulations and hoops.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Seriously, turn off Facebook. You'll be happier.
United States
Riva
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
    Available options:

       1. Focus on gaming.
       2. Focus on your kids.
       3. Severely compromise both efforts simultaneously.

    It's not just the people playing games with your kids that have to deal with this. It's also people playing with you.

    Figure out what your priorities are and commit. Either one is fine.

             Sag.



19 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
If it falls on me and pins me underneath it, does that still count as seizing the day?
United States
Kansas City
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
I think that all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jatoha wrote:
darlok wrote:

There I’ve said it... i expect a fair amount of residual flack, so feel free to um...disagree.


It's been my observation that people get blasted for even suggesting that kids should be allowed, so I don't think you should be too worried about voicing this point of view.


Yeah, I got royally reamed last week when I asked about changing the rules to allow kids under 12 (like mine). I wanted to have them there so we can game together -- not with other people -- to try out a bunch of games for our family.

Not going to happen now. I learned my lesson.


4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Bentley
United States
Cleburne
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
E Decker wrote:
mrorwell wrote:
That implies that parents are leaving their minor children unattended in a room full of strangers?

Anybody who was never left unattended by their parents in a room full of strangers, please raise your hand. Hello? Anyone? Hello?

Come on, I can understand being annoyed by out of control kids. That - like being left unattended by our parents back in the day - is something that's happened to all of us on occasion. But calling the cops seems just a wee bit over the top to me.


Would you think it over the top if one of your children were taken by some strange men, held somewhere and beaten and molested? And lest you think this is an extreme example, this sort of thing happens more than one might think. I know. I was the kid abducted...

As much as I would love to take my own children to a board game convention, I would not dream of it unless I was absolutely committed to constantly supervising them myself. And since I want to go to the convention and enjoy playing games and visiting others, I'll choose to not take my children, and make plans later for a kid-friendly outing at which children are welcome.

I love my children with all my heart, and, yes, the thought of them not even being allowed at a board game convention bothers me. I'm always trying to involve my kids in gaming at home, and now here I am choosing to attend a major board game event that excludes them? I can see how this hits a sour note with people. But, I know that it simply is NOT a wise thing to allow children into the BGG.Con. It's not fair to other attendees, those sponsoring and working it, it's not really even fair to the parents, and really, when it comes down to it, it's really not fair to the kids.

Yes, I know the example of what happened to me when I was young IS an extreme example; however, such things DO happen, more than we realize. I worked several years as an officer for the Sheriff's Office, and unfortunately, saw this happen often. Very sad indeed.

So, even if my kids were allowed, I doubt I would bring them because I would still want to constantly be by their side...and neither them nor myself would enjoy the convention. We'll plan a family day at another time, and somehow I just don't think they will mind that at all.

Whew, enough of my 2 cents. (And yes, it took YEARS for me to deal with what happened to me...and only through the grace of God and support of family and friends did I make it through...)

Thanks,
jrbentley
20 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
If it falls on me and pins me underneath it, does that still count as seizing the day?
United States
Kansas City
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
I think that all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mrorwell wrote:

... this wasn't an indictment of kids... it was an indictment of parents who use convention staff and game masters as baby sitters.

I've been to many a science fiction convention where mom drives up at noon, 2 teens jump out of the car and mom drives off... and the kids are still there at midnight.


And I've worked on cons where that happened. Parents drop their kids off at the hotel Saturday morning with $30 for food, etc., then drive away. At 10 o'clock that night they call wanting to know why little Johnny wasn't out front when they came to pick him up, and for me to go get him. I'd tell the people that we had over 1800 attendees scattered across a dozen function rooms on multiple floors, plus over two hundred sleeping rooms that their kid could be in, and we had neither the time nor the personnel to go find him.

If I wasn't busy -- which was rare -- I'd promise the parent that I'd go ask for them in the game room (the usual teen hangout), but not to have a lot of hope. When one particularly irate parent spluttered that it was my job to keep track of the kid, I told them No, that was her job, and dropping him off at a hotel was not the best way to do that, but she was welcome to come in and look for him herself.

It's a perrenial problem at cons, and one I do not plan to contribute to, having been on the other side far too many times. My kids must akways stay within direct sight of either Mom or Dad when at a convention.

16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Johnson
United States
Independence
Missouri
flag msg tools
admin
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I actually think that the right 14 or 15 year old could enjoy the con... but most of them are annoying and juvenile, maybe not in behavior but in game play. I also dread ever playing another game with a child and parent... often the child either relentlessly attacks said parent or is that parent's puppet player.

I love kids, especially my own... but everyone needs a break from them, and for me BGG is the place I get that. Leave them at home.
18 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Hathorn
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I, for one, love playing games with kids and agree with the poster who said we need to encourage the next generation to love our hobby as much as we do. That being said, I go to Cons to play games that don't make it to our table very often - big, meaty, deep, strategic, weirdly themed, sometimes even themes that would put Sleeping Beauty into a coma (Agricola anyone?), and let's not forget long play times - and I find that children, even 15 or 16 year olds and the more mature tweens, just don't have the stamina or patience for them (there are exceptions and some do, but they are exceedingly rare).

They start off great and then lose interest about half, or a little more, of the way through. Even if they do end up sticking it out until the bitter end (and for them it usually is bitter) they make poor choices that are no where near optimal for them (and usually benefit another player to all the other players' detriment - and I've been on both ends) because they're just trying to finish up so they can go play (and, I hate to say, unintentionally ruin) another game.

I'm a huge proponent of encouraging gaming for the next generation and have and will continue to volunteer at and/or organize kids game night, after school game events, or perhaps even a Gaming Con aimed at children and whole families. But this isn't marketed as such.

For those who insist on it, be aware that I, and other adult gamers, aren't going to tone down our playful trash talking, bad luck cursing, adult-themed conversations, or other adult behaviors just because you decide to buck the trend. We may have the best of intentions to do just that, but our pervasive gaming habits will surface and we'll revert to our, admittedly childlike but still adult-infused, former characteristics.

In short, this ain't the place for children.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Collett
United States
Shawnee
Kansas
flag msg tools
OOhhhhh.. Da Red Snappa! Veeerrry tasty!
badge
You sooo stupid!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ryno8 wrote:
I actually think that the right 14 or 15 year old could enjoy the con... but most of them are annoying and juvenile, maybe not in behavior but in game play. I also dread ever playing another game with a child and parent... often the child either relentlessly attacks said parent or is that parent's puppet player.

I love kids, especially my own... but everyone needs a break from them, and for me BGG is the place I get that. Leave them at home.


Sadly, there are plenty of adults that are annoying and juvenile as well. You don't need a few 14 or 15 y/o kids to make that happen.

What about this? Have a location or set of tables for parents with children. If people play at these tables, they know there is a risk of the parent needing to leave or the child not understanding, etc.

The thing is there if you don't include kids then some people won't come. If you do include kids, some people won't come. Either way someone is not going to be happy so maybe try to find a medium here that isn't a whole lot of work.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sithrak - The god who hates you unconditionally
Germany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tcollett wrote:
The thing is there if you don't include kids then some people won't come. If you do include kids, some people won't come. Either way someone is not going to be happy so maybe try to find a medium here that isn't a whole lot of work.


In other words "If we can't make both sides happy, we sure as hell can find a way to make both sides unhappy"?
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chaddyboy
United States
Olathe
Kansas
flag msg tools
admin
designer
Bloooooop.
badge
Bluuuuuurp.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tcollett wrote:
Sadly, there are plenty of adults that are annoying and juvenile as well. You don't need a few 14 or 15 y/o kids to make that happen.


The difference is that there are very few adults that act like 14 year olds, whereas a 14 year old will act like a 14 year old.
21 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Dubin
United States
Champaign
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tcollett wrote:
The thing is there if you don't include kids then some people won't come. If you do include kids, some people won't come. Either way someone is not going to be happy so maybe try to find a medium here that isn't a whole lot of work.


I think an effective compromise would be a lot more work than running an event that is either family friendly or aimed at adults only.

My local con is family oriented. When I run an event there, I agree to the policy that no content or behavior will be inappropriate for any kids who may be nearby (including kids under 12). That's not to say that the game itself has to be a good one for kids -- we have plenty of long and meaty games. All events are classified by their judges and advertised as either: a) younger players welcome, b) inexperienced players welcome, c) general gaming experience preferred, or d) experience with the specific game needed. But language and behavior appropriate to a family-oriented event is part of the general rules for all attendees. Any adult or child who can't abide by them will be ejected. And as for unscheduled open gaming -- there basically isn't any. All tables are booked in advance for scheduled events.

In order to make the con feasible for kids at all, it's really necessary to enforce rules like these throughout. And if you think a con like this is no fun, think again. The policies work great, and every year I have a wonderful time gaming with players of all ages there. In fact, the knowledge that we've all agreed to the ground rules gives me more confidence taking the risk of including younger players in more challenging games.

I've only been to one BGG.con, but I can't imagine how it could become responsibly kid friendly without radically changing its character. I hope any parent reading this will be lucky enough to find a family-friendly gaming con close enough to bring their kids to.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.