Recommend
6 
 Thumb up
 Hide
13 Posts

World at War: Blood and Bridges» Forums » Variants

Subject: Minimum Range and Alternate AP Firepower Optional Rules rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Christopher O
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Summer grasses / All that remains / Of soldiers' dreams. - Basho.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hello everyone,

I included these optional rules in the second countersheet PDF for my Sea to Sky expansion, but not everyone is downloading that, so here it is if you're interested.

Quote:
6.1.4.1 MISSILE MINIMUM RANGES (OPTIONAL RULE)

Some early ATGMs had a minimum range they had to fly before arming and becoming fully guided, or otherwise had certain design characteristics that dictated a certain minimum range. Below that range, such units had to use other anti-tank weapons or could not fire.

The Sagger missile and vehicles which use it ("BMPs" from WaW: EG are BMP-1s) cannot engage targets at four hexes or less with ATGM firepower. BMP-1s may use their cannon at these ranges. (see 1.3.7 below)

Support Weapon Saggers cannot be used at ranges four or less.

The Shillelagh missile fired by the M551 Sheridan cannot engage targets at four hexes or less. Sheridans may use their cannon for targets inside these ranges. (see 1.3.7 below)

All other ATGMs included so far in the World at War modules and expansions have minimum ranges equal to or less than the 150m of a single hex and therefore require no minimum range at this scale.

1.3.7 ALTERNATE AP FIREPOWER (OPTIONAL RULE)

Most Infantry Fighting Vehicles (IFVs) as well as the M551 Sheridan light tank had armour piercing rounds for their cannon armament which could be used in the event that their ATGM armament could not be brought to bear.

The vehicles in the chart below may use their alternate AP firepower at any time when they are normally eligible to fire, including when under a ammunition depleted marker.

The Sheridan and BMP-1 alternate firepower are HEAT rounds for purposes of Advanced Armour.



I have reduced the Sheridan's range from the countersheet 2 printing. The original range was a typo - sources rate the HEAT round from the 152mm cannon as having a maximum effective range of 1000m.

The optional rules for ATGM minimum ranges and alternate AP firepower are linked; if one optional rule is used, the other should be used as well.

Using either rule adds a small amount of extra information which some players may find unnecessary, distracting or otherwise not in the spirit of the simple nature of the World at War system. Both rules are entirely optional and are included for those players who feel that an important aspect of the weapons systems of IFVs has been neglected or that early ATGMs are somewhat overpowered given their real-life operating limitations.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim P.
United States
Thousand Oaks
CA
flag msg tools
Visit the Wargame Bootcamp guild
badge
Muppet !
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A suggestion, how about including the minimum range info for the Sagger etc and such equipped vehicle on the chart as well, so wverything is in one place ?

Great work again, any plans for more Warsaw pact or 2nd line Soviets targets forces, I would love to have more T-62s and T-55s.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wulf Corbett
Scotland
Shotts
Lanarkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, a 5-hex minimum range? That's really severe - game changing in fact!

I mean, I'm all for realism, and it's not terribly complex or hard to use, but it will certainly change tactics...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher O
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Summer grasses / All that remains / Of soldiers' dreams. - Basho.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wulf Corbett wrote:
Wow, a 5-hex minimum range? That's really severe - game changing in fact!

I mean, I'm all for realism, and it's not terribly complex or hard to use, but it will certainly change tactics...


It is quite a difference - 700m is no small distance, especially in some of the ranges you get in the north part of the Eisenbach Gap map or quite a bit of the Blood and Bridges map.

One of the first thing I noticed when I played the first couple of games of WaW was the danger of BMP-series vehicles seemed out of proportion to their real-world performance. It brought back hazy memories of playing Microprose's M1 Tank Platoon, where you'd often take out the BMPs and BRDMs before you went for the MBTs.

The BMP-2s with Spandrels at 4-4 especially seemed wrong. But then again, that's been hashed and re-hashed by many posters here - no point in going back and trying to retroactively change values, so I figure small tweaks like this and the advanced armour rules help out. I may combine the advanced armour, moving fire, minimum range and alternate AP firepower optional rules into one PDF, but that'll take longer.

Quote:
A suggestion, how about including the minimum range info for the Sagger etc and such equipped vehicle on the chart as well, so wverything is in one place ?

Great work again, any plans for more Warsaw pact or 2nd line Soviets targets forces, I would love to have more T-62s and T-55s.


Sure, I could do that. I'll amend the chart tomorrow night or something.

No current plans for additional 2nd Line Soviet forces, but the first line Chinese (not to mention the second line Chinese) units I'm working on will be pretty close in performance to T-62s and T-55s.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wulf Corbett
Scotland
Shotts
Lanarkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It might be heretically inaccurate, but couldn't you simplify all those non-ATGM fire values to a standard 326 ? You wouldn't need a table then just a symbol on the counter.

Erm... although I have enough trouble reading the counters as it is (yours are better than the Line of Fire ones though)...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bry Barnes
United Kingdom
Somerset, Uk
flag msg tools
Hey, I like the AP firepower factors for the APCs.

Glad someones done that.

I'd like to also change the Scimitar's values to at least 4-2-6 or possibly 5-26 from the stock 3-2-6. The 30mm rarden is a very fine AT weapon and is certainly better than the 3-2-6 markH gave it .

Cheers,

Bry
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Colin Hunter
New Zealand
Auckland
flag msg tools
badge
Stop the admins removing history from the Wargaming forum.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Some random thoughts that occur to me. The Sheridan can fire Heat and He rounds, but I'd guess it isn't very accurate beyond 500-600 metres, perhaps its maximum range is 1000 metres, but I would guess the accuracy on the short barreled gun would be low at best (in fact an auto cannon is probably more accurate given its rate of fire). I'd personally up the AT further, but reduce the range further, so if it were me, I'd give the sheridan gun, 2-3-5 or something, like that, maybe even more AT. Against anything that isn't advanced armour (ER or Chobham), I think that 152mm if it could actually hit would be pretty devastating, even the HE round would be very scary.


I definitely agree that the BMP's missile capability is well over rated, but it isn't a biggie, 4-4 is ridiculous for a missile designed to take out light targets, sure against a hovering helicopter or Light AT vehicle it should paste them, but against an MBT platoon?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bry Barnes
United Kingdom
Somerset, Uk
flag msg tools
Also Chris - where can we download the pdf with the new AT firepower table you've shown at the top?

I've got the v1.1 of the Sea+sky mod but I'd be very interested in the pdf with the table in it.

Ta,

Bry
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher O
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Summer grasses / All that remains / Of soldiers' dreams. - Basho.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Battlerbritain wrote:
Also Chris - where can we download the pdf with the new AT firepower table you've shown at the top?

I've got the v1.1 of the Sea+sky mod but I'd be very interested in the pdf with the table in it.

Ta,

Bry


Hi Bry,

If you PM me, I can send the StS v1.1 countersheet 2 PDF to you, which contains the chart above. Include an e-mail address that you want the file sent to.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher O
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Summer grasses / All that remains / Of soldiers' dreams. - Basho.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ibn_ul_khattab wrote:
Some random thoughts that occur to me. The Sheridan can fire Heat and He rounds, but I'd guess it isn't very accurate beyond 500-600 metres, perhaps its maximum range is 1000 metres, but I would guess the accuracy on the short barreled gun would be low at best (in fact an auto cannon is probably more accurate given its rate of fire). I'd personally up the AT further, but reduce the range further, so if it were me, I'd give the sheridan gun, 2-3-5 or something, like that, maybe even more AT. Against anything that isn't advanced armour (ER or Chobham), I think that 152mm if it could actually hit would be pretty devastating, even the HE round would be very scary.


I actually thought about going 3-5 firepower, but apparently the Sheridan was slow to reload. In addition it didn't carry much ammunition. This, in combination with potential optical sight misalignment issues after firing the cannon rounds, made me decide that a 2-5 would probably be more representative given the reduced volume of fire.

Since the alternate AP value exists only on a chart, feel free to mark up the chart with different values - like your 2-3-5.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dirk Wegner
Germany
Kassel
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Bravo Kozure made nearly the same changes myself( so I gave all rockets a minimum range of 3), brings the sence back in autocannons and thus equipt recon tanks (scenario 2 )!

Slight wondering: if the bradley gets it to hit increased by 1 (from 6 to 7) it´s equivalent to decreasing it´s firepower (from 2 to 1) or not?

Other houserules I made :
No shoting modifyers due to attached leaders!
DPICM has an anti-infantry value of the same magnitude ( it´s dual porpuse munition isn´t it).
Tornados can attac into fog, other aircraft not.
When ground attack planes fight tanks in the open then with AP value against it´s armor, in woods or village just HE value against defensive bonus.
And of course modern armor has an bonus of 1 against rockets.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Colin Hunter
New Zealand
Auckland
flag msg tools
badge
Stop the admins removing history from the Wargaming forum.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kozure wrote:
ibn_ul_khattab wrote:
Some random thoughts that occur to me. The Sheridan can fire Heat and He rounds, but I'd guess it isn't very accurate beyond 500-600 metres, perhaps its maximum range is 1000 metres, but I would guess the accuracy on the short barreled gun would be low at best (in fact an auto cannon is probably more accurate given its rate of fire). I'd personally up the AT further, but reduce the range further, so if it were me, I'd give the sheridan gun, 2-3-5 or something, like that, maybe even more AT. Against anything that isn't advanced armour (ER or Chobham), I think that 152mm if it could actually hit would be pretty devastating, even the HE round would be very scary.


I actually thought about going 3-5 firepower, but apparently the Sheridan was slow to reload. In addition it didn't carry much ammunition. This, in combination with potential optical sight misalignment issues after firing the cannon rounds, made me decide that a 2-5 would probably be more representative given the reduced volume of fire.

Since the alternate AP value exists only on a chart, feel free to mark up the chart with different values - like your 2-3-5.


Yes the sheridan wasn't exactly accurate, but my understanding is that by 85 some of the sighting issues had been sorted. Not sure about RoF, it is very hard to judge that with the WaW system, but I can see your point. I don't think it matters too much at that range a sheridan is in trouble.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher O
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Summer grasses / All that remains / Of soldiers' dreams. - Basho.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dirk W wrote:
Bravo Kozure made nearly the same changes myself( so I gave all rockets a minimum range of 3), brings the sence back in autocannons and thus equipt recon tanks (scenario 2 )!

Slight wondering: if the bradley gets it to hit increased by 1 (from 6 to 7) it´s equivalent to decreasing it´s firepower (from 2 to 1) or not?



The usual answer is that if a to-hit number is increased to more than 6, the shot cannot be taken.

With the Bradley, if you want to do moving fire with the alternate AP rating, you'd have to end up at reduced range. (2 or less).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.