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Subject: Moving a helper rss

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Gláucio Reis
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The rules state that you can move a helper from a cart if you want to place one in the castle and don't have any in your reserve. Can you also move it to another cart when playing the trader? And can you move a helper even if you have one in your reserve? (That might be considered if you wanted to prevent a helper from being removed by an opponent.)
 
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Matt Musselman
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GSReis wrote:
The rules state that you can move a helper from a cart if you want to place one in the castle and don't have any in your reserve. Can you also move it to another cart when playing the trader? And can you move a helper even if you have one in your reserve? (That might be considered if you wanted to prevent a helper from being removed by an opponent.)


I'm not sure what the advantage would be of moving a helper when you already have one in your supply. Whether you remove it or you wait until an opponent removes it, that's still one less helper of yours out on the board, and missing out on more future resource gathering turns than if you'd waited for an opponent to remove it.

I can't answer for sure on moving a helper during a trader phase rather than a Stonemason/Bricklayer helper-placement phase, but it seems reasonable that you should be able to unless the rules explicitly forbit it. Others may have a different interpretation, though.
 
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mark sellmeyer
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I don't know if it's legal to just move a helper to make it undisplaceable, but why not just add a helper if you have it available? Your still going to get the goods that you just added to and maybe bonus goods if your opponent wanted something other than the goods where your old helper was.
 
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Gláucio Reis
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I didn't intend to discuss strategy, but there are specific situations where moving a helper to another cart might be advantageous. It did happen in one of my games, but I don't remember the details. Let's suppose, then, that in the last turn of a two-player game both players play trader and stonemason. I have helpers on sand and silver, while my opponent has hers on wood and clay. The spot for stone is empty, because she moved a helper to the castle in the previous turn. I have enough sand and want stone. I play first. By moving my helper from sand to stone, I force my opponent to take sand. If I place a helper from my reserve, my opponent can remove my helper on silver.
 
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Matt Musselman
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GSReis wrote:
I didn't intend to discuss strategy, but there are specific situations where moving a helper to another cart might be advantageous. It did happen in one of my games, but I don't remember the details. Let's suppose, then, that in the last turn of a two-player game both players play trader and stonemason. I have helpers on sand and silver, while my opponent has hers on wood and clay. The spot for stone is empty, because she moved a helper to the castle in the previous turn. I have enough sand and want stone. I play first. By moving my helper from sand to stone, I force my opponent to take sand. If I place a helper from my reserve, my opponent can remove my helper on silver.


Ah, I see your point now.

That doesn't *feel* legal to me, but who's to say....
 
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Jeff Binning
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Quote:
The rules state that you can move a helper from a cart if you want to place one in the castle and don't have any in your reserve. Can you also move it to another cart when playing the trader? And can you move a helper even if you have one in your reserve? (That might be considered if you wanted to prevent a helper from being removed by an opponent.)


I'd say no, it's not legal, based on the stated rule:

Quote:
"Only one helper is allowed per cart, or beside the rider. Each of these 'trader's helpers' remains on the gameboard and 'occupies' the respective kind of resource until he is displaced by another trader's helper (or until the player needs his helper for a building)."


That rule says (to me) that I have to leave the worker where he is unless I want to place him in a building up in the castle. Only another player's trader can move him by displacement, and then only when all cart positions (not the silver) are already full.
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Jeff Binning
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Quote:
And can you move a helper even if you have one in your reserve?


When I answered the earlier question, I missed this other part of your post. The pertinent rule about using helpers is the first sentence of column 3 on page 6:

Quote:
A player may remove his trader's helper(s) from the carts/rider and immediately use them in buildings.


No other restrictions are listed, so I'd say it's ok to move helpers from the cart/rider to a building even if you have other helpers in reserve.


 
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Gláucio Reis
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Colorado_Jeff wrote:
Quote:
A player may remove his trader's helper(s) from the carts/rider and immediately use them in buildings.


No other restrictions are listed, so I'd say it's ok to move helpers from the cart/rider to a building even if you have other helpers in reserve.

Yes, but that was not exactly my first question, which was about moving helpers to another cart. I started my original post referring to the rule you quoted, and it does say a player may remove his trader's helpers to use them in buildings, but says nothing about using them in another cart. Also, the rule you had quoted before implies otherwise, again mentioning only buildings: "... remains on the board until he is displaced by another trader's helper (or until the player needs his helper for a building)." However, might that be just an oversight, as the issue will likely affect two-player games only?

Also, notice that the "another trader's helper" part does not necessarily mean "another player's helper", so it might still be legal to displace your helper with another helper of yours (by moving), whether or not it is legal to move one when you have another in your reserve.
 
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Jeff Binning
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Quote:
I started my original post referring to the rule you quoted, and it does say a player may remove his trader's helpers to use them in buildings, but says nothing about using them in another cart.


Because the rules say nothing about moving them to another cart, I don't consider it an option.

Quote:
Also, the rule you had quoted before implies otherwise, again mentioning only buildings: "... remains on the board until he is displaced by another trader's helper (or until the player needs his helper for a building)."


I think the rules here are simply clarifying there are only two conditions for moving these helpers, either displacement or in buildings.


Quote:
Also, notice that the "another trader's helper" part does not necessarily mean "another player's helper"


I see your point, but I guess I thought 'another trader's helper' meant a trader other than my own. I saw it as me just having one trader who returns from time to time, rather than another (new) trader each time I use him. Also the rules say 'displace', which in this case means 'take the place of'. There'd be no reason to replace a helper with another of your own.

Jay at Rio Grande Games is good about answering rules queries. You might try asking him. I'd be interested in his reply, but for me the rules seem clear on this. (Which is not to say I'm correct. I'm just not interpreting the same as you are.)
 
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Gláucio Reis
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Colorado_Jeff wrote:
I see your point, but I guess I thought 'another trader's helper' meant a trader other than my own. I saw it as me just having one trader who returns from time to time, rather than another (new) trader each time I use him.

I don't think the exact semantics have much meaning when the lack of care in the translation is evident.

Quote:
Jay at Rio Grande Games is good about answering rules queries. You might try asking him.

I have already asked him and I'm waiting for his reply. I have also asked Eggert-Spiele, as I'm not too confident in Jay's answer, but I don't know if they will respond.

Quote:
I'd be interested in his reply, but for me the rules seem clear on this. (Which is not to say I'm correct. I'm just not interpreting the same as you are.)

I only disagree on the clarity of the rules. I'm not advocating either interpretation.
 
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Tom Anderson
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I'm no expert by any means, but the rules seem pretty clear to me regarding the trader staying where he is unless he's needed in the castle. I can see exactly WHY you would want to do it, but I don't think it's legal.

Good luck
 
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