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Subject: What reservation rules do you prefer? rss

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Sheamus Parkes
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It appears that there are a few different reservation rules out there. On the first turn you are obviously allowed to reserve anywhere. Past that turn, do you allow:

Reservations Next to Already Placed Street Tiles?
Reservations Next to Already Placed Building Tiles?
Reservations Next to Already Placed Supply Tiles?
Reservations Next to Already Placed Retail Tiles?
Reservations Next to Already Placed Reservation Cubes?


The Plenary rules seem to suggest any of the above is legal. Joshua Miller seems to suggest only next to streets and Reservation cubes.

What rules work best for you guys?
 
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Mik Svellov
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- the ones given by the designer.
 
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Brent Mair
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Great Dane wrote:
- the ones given by the designer.


Well that is extremely unhelpful.
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Sheamus Parkes
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Great Dane wrote:
- the ones given by the designer.


And those would be....

I have a rule book. It's full of errors on other topics, so I don't exactly trust it on this one. I know people play whatever the hell with this game anyway, so I was checking on this topic
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Mik Svellov
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Okay then: the ones given by the designer AND Joshua Miller.
 
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Gary Pressler
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I was unaware that there were any placement restrictions. I've never played with them, and it seems to work quite well. "Quite well" meaning that I very much enjoy the game even if my scores rarely suggest that I played quite well.
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Jamie Collins
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We play reservations next to an already-placed Supply tile, Retail tile, Building tile and Cube (i.e. all you mention except Street) and it works well for us.

Next to a Supply tile (not sure whether this is the designer's rule or not) works fine for us due to the prime location IMO for a Retail tile being immediately diagonal to the Supply (on an 'undeveloped' board, at least) i.e. place a Cube next to the Supply tile and you more than likely set the next player up for the sweet spot (may have more than one sweet spot, of course, if the Supply is not too near a board corner).

We play mostly two player with *all* Supply tiles placed randomly and (obviously) are happy with house rules. In the first round, each player will place their first Cube in the optimum location for a Retail, therefore in a two player game Cubes must (usually) be 'chained' to get near to the remaining two Supply tiles (aside: it seems to me the starting player has a slight disadvantage here). So a house rule allowing Cubes to be placed freely would seem to be too libertarian and would remove some of the fun from our games.
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Sheamus Parkes
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So we played a quick 2-player game finally.

And I don't think the designer's rules really work for 2 player. As of the second turn, the only legal places are next to already placed cubes. But there will only be cubes next to a couple of the supply depots. If you draw an outlet for one of the other depots, you'll get screwed by "winning" that auction.

With more players, maybe it works better. For now, I like the "adjacent to anything" rule the best. It's easy to explain, which is a big plus after trying to explain the street rules.
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Brent Mair
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Sheamus,
There are a few things to consider if you use the more restrictive rules.

First, you might want to make sure you are using the rules where the active player wins ties. That means that players who flip tiles better be sure they are willing to win any outlet.

Second, you should always consider if you and your opponent have good strategies for initial placement. I'd challenge you to rethink it based on these rules.

I have never played with the more restrictive rules (what Mik refers to as the designer rules). I'm looking forward to trying it with the appropriate auction tiebreaker.
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Sheamus Parkes
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I completely agree about the auction tie-breaker. From the first play we made the flipper win ties so they are punished if they don't have a good place for an outlet.

But with only two players and using the "restrictive" placement, just how spread out can you get? If that first tile is an outlet and nobody is near the supply, aren't you just randomly getting hosed?
 
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Brent Mair
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Isamoor wrote:

But with only two players and using the "restrictive" placement, just how spread out can you get? If that first tile is an outlet and nobody is near the supply, aren't you just randomly getting hosed?


I'll have to try it out in the next few days to see what I think. With a 7x7 board and six marking stone you probably don't get very spread out if you place the first stone in the optimal place. Which makes me wonder if you should rethink your starting location.

This is all conjecture, but I do plan on playing the game this week using the (new to me) original rules. I hope to do a two player game at some point.
 
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Gary Pressler
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Isamoor wrote:
I completely agree about the auction tie-breaker. From the first play we made the flipper win ties so they are punished if they don't have a good place for an outlet.

Absolutely.

Quote:
But with only two players and using the "restrictive" placement, just how spread out can you get? If that first tile is an outlet and nobody is near the supply, aren't you just randomly getting hosed?

You are making me fear I've missed some other rule. Regardless of number of players, why would you ever draw tile unless you already had a decent reservation for each of your remaining outlets? (plus one or two locations for junk community tiles)
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Brent Mair
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GaryP wrote:

You are making me fear I've missed some other rule. Regardless of number of players, why would you ever draw tile unless you already had a decent reservation for each of your remaining outlets? (plus one or two locations for junk community tiles)


You only have six reservation markers to place. If you can only place them next to other cubes initially, the OP is concerned that you won't spread out very much with only one or two starting groups and only six markers per person total.
 
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Jamie Collins
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Spielguy wrote:

With a 7x7 board and six marking stone you probably don't get very spread out if you place the first stone in the optimal place.


Agreed, the size of the board should mean that neither player is too far 'geographically' from any supply tile (and another good reason for placing the supply tiles away from the board corners when playing two player)

...not that that means too much, of course. It's length of road that is crucial, rather than absolute geographical position. Last game I played both players ended up 5 and 6 road tiles respectively from one supply tiles (and the margin of victory for the game was one point!)
 
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Brent Mair
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Yesterday I played a two player game using the original (restrictive) placement rules and it played fine. I was able to get reasonably close to each of the outlets, and as should be obvious, I was able to get within a space of any of my opponent's cubes.

I had played 2 player before but it was surprisingly tight and still allowed for some strange routes.

I really like the game but I haven't played yet where I do the expropriation correctly all the time.

I believe I will continue to play by what I understand to be the original rules. They differ from the Plenary games edition in the following ways:

Placement of reservation cubes is more limited. You can only place next to streets or other cubes.
Auction ties are won by the initiating player
Money is subtracted from length of roads (unsure if this is different in Plenary rules)


Last note: It is true that the placement of reservation cubes can lead to a dead game. If no roads get placed and the two initial cubes get used, then there would be no place to place more cubes. Highly unlikely, since it is poor play.
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Ryan O'Rourke
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Spielguy wrote:
Yesterday I played a two player game using the original (restrictive) placement rules and it played fine. I was able to get reasonably close to each of the outlets, and as should be obvious, I was able to get within a space of any of my opponent's cubes.

I had played 2 player before but it was surprisingly tight and still allowed for some strange routes.

I really like the game but I haven't played yet where I do the expropriation correctly all the time.

I believe I will continue to play by what I understand to be the original rules. They differ from the Plenary games edition in the following ways:

Placement of reservation cubes is more limited. You can only place next to streets or other cubes.
Auction ties are won by the initiating player
Money is subtracted from length of roads (unsure if this is different in Plenary rules)


Last note: It is true that the placement of reservation cubes can lead to a dead game. If no roads get placed and the two initial cubes get used, then there would be no place to place more cubes. Highly unlikely, since it is poor play.


I have the Plenary edition, and I'm just starting to understand this game myself after 5 plays now. My understanding of the Plenary rules is that you can only place next to another player's reservation cube. I also interpret this to mean next to a building or Retail outlet, but not next to a street or Supply center. I like it this way for any # of players, although I would consider in a 2 player game allowing the first two moves to be played anywhere as opposed to only the first move. The fact that you cannot not place next to streets is more limiting than what you have listed as the original ruling (although I'd be interested to try this).

We've tried both ways, with auctions won by the initiating player, and vice versa. I prefer the original ruling that they are won by the initiating player for the reasons already mentioned.

As for money subtracted from roads at game end, this is the first I've heard of that, and I think gives too much weight to money, and may prefer it only as a tiebreaker. However I'd be willing to try it, because it will make auctions even more difficult.

Regarding your last note, I don't see how a dead game can come about. First of all, we have 6 cubes to use for reservations, not 2 (the 2 are set aside for when we start claiming our retail outlets). Second, once all reservations are made, you can just build buildings. This is not dependent on roads in any way. In fact roads only come about as a result of the placement of buildings. This is one of the most difficult parts of the game for players to understand, but to do so is to fully appreciate the heart and nature of this game.

BTW, this has now become one of my favorite games of all time, and one of my few 10's.
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Cliff
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Isamoor wrote:
It appears that there are a few different reservation rules out there. ...

The Plenary rules seem to suggest any of the above is legal. Joshua Miller seems to suggest only next to streets and Reservation cubes. ...



Any link to Josh's comments?
 
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Ken Shoda
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I have been playing Fresh Fish for a long time (over 40 times) and I always play with the rule below (based on the first edition rule).

http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/145/freshfsh-doc

In this rule, you find the following.
Quote:
1. Reserve a building plot (as long as the player still has markers available). The player places his marker on a vacant plot which must be adjacent either to an undeveloped plot which already contains a marker (of any colour) or to a street tile.


So outlet with someone's cube doesn't count. I think this is a good rule to limit where you can reserve in reasonable way.
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