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Subject: Help 1st Turn: Doomed World vs Old Earth rss

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NtN Scissors
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Advanced 2-player game, you are Doomed World facing Old Earth, starting hand:
Alien Toy Shop
Free Trade Association
Genetics Lab
Mining Conglomerate
Reptilian Uplift Race
Space Marines

Goals in play:
(Most) 4+ Developments, 6+ Military
(First) 3xAlien, 1 of each colour, 6-dev, Discard

What 4 cards to keep, and what 2 actions to call?
 
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Greg Jones
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NtNScissors wrote:
Alien Toy Shop
Free Trade Association


I like these because they would pair nicely with Galactic Studios if you found it. Alien Toy Shop is good with Galactic Trendsetters and any Production world, or with New Earth. Tourist World and two cheap blue Production worlds would also make a good Produce - Consume engine with Alien Toy Shop, and Free Trade Association would get bonus points for those. All nice expensive worlds to build using your Doomed World power.

NtNScissors wrote:
Genetics Lab
Reptilian Uplift Race
Space Marines


These have a nice synergy.

NtNScissors wrote:
Mining Conglomerate


This is your only real dud. You have no browns in hand. You might get New Earth, but just getting some bonus cards on Produce is not a good enough reason for a speculative strategy.

NtNScissors wrote:
4+ Developments


None of your cards help here.

NtNScissors wrote:
6+ Military


New Sparta helps a little, but still not very strong evidence you'll be achieving this goal.

NtNScissors wrote:
3xAlien, 1 of each colour


Okay, so Alien Toy Shop helps you toward these. It's the cheapest non-military yellow.

NtNScissors wrote:
6-dev


You've got one, but you'll put it down in the right circumstances, not to achieve this goal.

NtNScissors wrote:
Discard


You've got a chance at it with two profitable windfalls in hand.

So already I said you should discard Mining Conglomerate. I think the other to discard is Free Trade Association. It could end up being nice, but it's not essential in any strategy I foresee.

You have two strategies in hand now. One revolves around Alien Toy Shop, the other around the other three. When I'm in that situation, I usually like to Explore, and let the results decide which way to go. So you could Explore +5, but then what else? You need to Settle to get started with the Alien Toy Shop route, but Develop to get started on the other three cards. Also, if you Settle Alien Toy Shop, and your opponent Consumes, you lose the good for points, instead of Trade it like you want early in the game.

So the Explore option, I think, would be Explore +1/+1 and Explore +5. If there is a Develop, you can leech it, but not a Settle.

A different option is just to commit to the 3-card package. You can do it either with or without giving up Alien Toy Shop. You could call Develop and Settle and discard Alien Toy Shop to pay for Space Marines, and then Settle Reptilian Uplift Race. Or you could call Explore +1/+1 and Develop, and Develop Space Marines. Leech a Settle for Reptilian Uplift Race, or call it and Trade next round. The cards you get in Trade can pay for Alien Toy Shop, or you can decide that's not a route you want to go. If you can without discarding a good card, Develop Genetics Lab before Trading the Reptilian Uplift Race good for the green Trade bonus.

I prefer the last option: Explore +1/+1 and Develop. It gets started faster than the pure Explore option, but it still doesn't commit to Alien Toy Shop or military before seeing more cards.
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Yep. Discard FTA and Mining Conglomerate.

Call Explore +1+1 and Develop, planning to play Marines, for possible leech of Reptiles.
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Rob Neuhaus
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mumushanshi wrote:
Yep. Discard FTA and Mining Conglomerate.

Call Explore +1+1 and Develop, planning to play Marines, for possible leech of Reptiles.


Reptilian Uplift Race is a 3 defense military world, you won't have the military to conquer it even if you had space marines.
 
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Brendon Russell
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rrenaud wrote:
mumushanshi wrote:
Yep. Discard FTA and Mining Conglomerate.

Call Explore +1+1 and Develop, planning to play Marines, for possible leech of Reptiles.


Reptilian Uplift Race is a 3 defense military world, you won't have the military to conquer it even if you had space marines.


It's 2 defense. Maybe you're thinking of Rebel Warrior Race?
 
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Rob Neuhaus
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scwont wrote:
rrenaud wrote:
Reptilian Uplift Race is a 3 defense military world, you won't have the military to conquer it even if you had space marines.


It's 2 defense. Maybe you're thinking of Rebel Warrior Race?


Indeed. Too many R's got me confused . I apologize (and I completely agree with the explore + dev opening).
 
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Guy Srinivasan
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Options in my opinion: E+1/D, E+1/T, D/T, S/T. If you're crazy awesome throw in T/P.

Explore is obviously not terrible when you've got Doomed World. Develop is fine when you've got Space Marines and an Uplift. Trade is clearly fine when you have ATS and are against Old Earth. And S/T with first turn ATS is guaranteed to be a fine play, but lets OE naked trade against you.

Naked T/P has the advantage of making your opponent leave the table in disgust if he plays Settle, which is an auto-win.

Personally I'd S/T most of the time. Worst case, against a naked trade you're still pretty much fine, since ATS is such a good play. But throw in the others for variety.
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Dave J McWeasely
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Settle + Trade - Alien Toy Shop. Duh.

E+5 lets you see only slightly more cards, and you give your opponent a card to boot. Ouch.

The cards to hold in hand are Reptiles, Marines, Genes Lab. Those are for blunting the other guy's actions, if he develops. Otherwise draw six new cards and be done.
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GreedyAlgorithm wrote:
Naked T/P has the advantage of making your opponent leave the table in disgust if he plays Settle, which is an auto-win.

I like the way you think.

If I call S/T, I'm more or less committed to ATS? To leech-dev Space Marines Turn 1, I have to throw both ATS and GenLab to keep my Uplift, which significantly weakens the whole proposition. Unless oppo calls E/D...?

[Which was what actually happened, btw. Oppo called E/D, I called S/T intending to chuck the whole lot and play ATS (swayed by the 4-colour and 3xAlien goals), but instead dev'd Marines paying GenLab and the card from explore, settled the Uplift and traded, lining up ATS for turn 2 instead. So I got lucky.]
 
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MrWeasely wrote:
Settle + Trade - Alien Toy Shop. Duh.

E+5 lets you see only slightly more cards, and you give your opponent a card to boot. Ouch.

The cards to hold in hand are Reptiles, Marines, Genes Lab. Those are for blunting the other guy's actions, if he develops. Otherwise draw six new cards and be done.

If we call Settle/Trade and oppo calls Exp/Dev, do we discard GenLab or ATS as the second discard? If we keep ATS, then it seems that GenLab is going to get discarded in all circumstances, so we could have kept any card in its place...

Why does this always happen to my Genetics Lab, by the way? I almost always seem to end up discarding it even if it looks synergistic.
 
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Patrick Runyan
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MrWeasely wrote:
Settle + Trade - Alien Toy Shop. Duh.

E+5 lets you see only slightly more cards, and you give your opponent a card to boot. Ouch.

The cards to hold in hand are Reptiles, Marines, Genes Lab. Those are for blunting the other guy's actions, if he develops. Otherwise draw six new cards and be done.


Exactly my thoughts. Our opponent is Old Earth... seems a no-brainer.
Interesting because this is one of the few times I wouldn't explore the first turn with Doomed World.

Furthermore, all those cards you get trading will make plopping down a 6-dev (if you keep it/draw a new one) more likely the next turn.

The Naked Trade seems needlessly risky.
 
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Guy Srinivasan
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jpwrunyan wrote:
The Naked Trade seems needlessly risky.

That's why, strangely, I'd likely be deciding between S/T and T/P. If I'm gonna be needlessly risky, I'm gonna get something awesome out of success.
 
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jpwrunyan wrote:
Furthermore, all those cards you get trading will make plopping down a 6-dev (if you keep it/draw a new one)


Just want to point out that settling ATS means keeping NONE of the other 6 cards in the original draw. Remember you can't use Doomed World's ability on Alien worlds. Same issue with the (now deleted) post from cosine.

Which is why I lean towards the E/D option. Marines is 1/3 of the way to Most Military goal. You're going to get Green, then Yellow down, 1/2-way to System Diversity. Lab will produce on that windfall for you, so if no more windfall producers come by you can still produce on ATS yourself.

I prefer not to consciously work towards Overlord Discoveries. For me it is too dependent on the luck of the draw.

Also, looking at the start worlds' abilities, I really see no reason not to Explore. You have +1 see, OE no bonuses. And if Old Earth doesn't settle, well, they're not using any of their powers.
 
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mumushanshi wrote:
Also, looking at the start worlds' abilities, I really see no reason not to Explore. You have +1 see, OE no bonuses. And if Old Earth doesn't settle, well, they're not using any of their powers.

But that's the whole point. You're not using the +1 see bonus if you intend to use the 2 cards from explore as cash:
Turn 1 E/D (Old Earth S/T): get two new cards X and Y, ditch Y to dev Space Marines, leech settle for Uplift
Turn 2 D/T (Old Earth Settle 2nd windfall/T or Settle production/P): ditch X to dev genetics lab, trade Uplift genes for 5

In this case, your +1 look isn't helping at all!
 
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Ah yes, but my Turn 2 is E/T.
Then, assuming nothing interesting (highly unlikely),
Turn 3 S/T.
Turn 4 D/P.
 
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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I toss FTA and MC and choose Explore +1, Develop. My plan is to put out Space Marines first turn, if OE doesn't choose Settle, I'll do Settle-Consume next turn for RUR. My long-term object is to get ATS, RUR, and GL all down, which gives the most flexibility towards the goals and is reasonable defense against most directions OE would take.

I don't like the "new hand" option of Settle, Consume$ because my biggest worry is that OE will go into a Consume/Produce cycle and I will have nothing to leech of off it. This is why I'd like to try pretty hard to keep Genetics Labs.

There are many cards I could find during the Explore that would make me change my plans. If I find Rebel Miners, then Genetics Labs becomes less precious. If I find Investment Credits, then that goes down before
Space Marines (Most Developments is precious).
 
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Eric Jome
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mumushanshi wrote:
Remember you can't use Doomed World's ability on Alien worlds.


I definitely made this mistake in my initial consideration of an answer.

Clearly the best 4 cards to keep are;

Alien Toy Shop
Genetics Lab
Reptilian Uplift Race
Space Marines

And this set of cards is oriented around a nice set of initial trades followed by easy conversion to a produce/consume cycle. You'd like to get them all in play... and Explore+1+1/Develop does seem like a pretty good choice. It is pretty slow as a start, but there isn't much you can do about that...

Burn a card you drew with Explore to play Marines. Odds are good Old Earth will Settle - they need worlds to use their actions - so you may get lucky. They aren't really going to benefit from Develop.

Round 2 is more interesting... if you got a Settle, you might play E+1+1 and Trade, if not, probably Settle and Trade. Selling the genetic secrets of the reptoids on the open market should net you plenty for getting that Toy Shop... and perhaps by now you'll have a decent replacement for Doomed World too.

This seems like a very good opening hand to me.
 
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Daniel Kearns
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Keep as above:

Alien Toy Shop
Genetics Lab
Reptilian Uplift Race
Space Marines

1st turn. Explore 1/1 and Develop: Marines paying with one of the cards you explored.

2nd turn. Settle Reptilian Uplift Race and trade.

The advantage of this 2 turn start is now everything your opponent calls is beneficial.

3rd turn. Settle ATS, maybe Trade again, hope for a Dev leech in there somewhere.

4th turn. Things get murky but you'll have tons of cards to do whatever you want. Probably start a Consume 2x engine.
 
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Greg Jones
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NtNScissors wrote:
mumushanshi wrote:
Also, looking at the start worlds' abilities, I really see no reason not to Explore. You have +1 see, OE no bonuses. And if Old Earth doesn't settle, well, they're not using any of their powers.

But that's the whole point. You're not using the +1 see bonus if you intend to use the 2 cards from explore as cash:
Turn 1 E/D (Old Earth S/T): get two new cards X and Y, ditch Y to dev Space Marines, leech settle for Uplift
Turn 2 D/T (Old Earth Settle 2nd windfall/T or Settle production/P): ditch X to dev genetics lab, trade Uplift genes for 5

In this case, your +1 look isn't helping at all!


The only part that you're pretty committed to by the turn 1 action selection is Developing Space Marines. Even that could change if you found something you prefer to Develop in the Explore.

In turn 2, you don't have to Develop Genetics Lab. If you do, you don't have to discard X. You could discard Alien Toy Shop instead. If I found a couple military-oriented cards in the Explore, I'd probably forget about Genetics Lab and call Explore +5 - Trade on turn 2.
 
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Patrick Runyan
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mumushanshi wrote:
jpwrunyan wrote:
Furthermore, all those cards you get trading will make plopping down a 6-dev (if you keep it/draw a new one)


Just want to point out that settling ATS means keeping NONE of the other 6 cards in the original draw. Remember you can't use Doomed World's ability on Alien worlds. Same issue with the (now deleted) post from cosine.

Which is why I lean towards the E/D option. Marines is 1/3 of the way to Most Military goal. You're going to get Green, then Yellow down, 1/2-way to System Diversity. Lab will produce on that windfall for you, so if no more windfall producers come by you can still produce on ATS yourself.

I prefer not to consciously work towards Overlord Discoveries. For me it is too dependent on the luck of the draw.

Also, looking at the start worlds' abilities, I really see no reason not to Explore. You have +1 see, OE no bonuses. And if Old Earth doesn't settle, well, they're not using any of their powers.


You're right. And I also forgot that Doomed World can't settle Alien (that's how I was keeping the 6-dev from the init hand)... So the only 2nd turn 6-dev is going to have to come from either the settle bonus or the trade. So this really isn't much better than the blind trade idea. And Doomed World just sits there, doomed.

Can I change my answer?
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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I also spaced on the Doomed-no-Alien rule.

But I stand by my move of settle/trade. To assume that the three cards discarded for Toy Shop are superior for the six random cards drawn from the settle/trade is not correct. Toy Shop is strong if you end up going with a Prod strategy.

The main downside is inability to draft a Develop on T1. An acceptable loss, IMO.
 
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Patrick Runyan
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MrWeasely wrote:
I also spaced on the Doomed-no-Alien rule.

But I stand by my move of settle/trade. To assume that the three cards discarded for Toy Shop are superior for the six random cards drawn from the settle/trade is not correct. Toy Shop is strong if you end up going with a Prod strategy.

The main downside is inability to draft a Develop on T1. An acceptable loss, IMO.


Yeah, but now it's getting down to play style. I am very risk-averse. Unless I think my start hand is hopeless, I will choose the devil I do know to the devil I don't.

But that's just me.
 
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Greg Meyer
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Another positive for S/T:C is looking at six cards is great for doomed world. Getting to keep them all is better than an E +5.

The more subtle Greedy Explore: Develop is quite good. You are set to draft a settle, and the Space Marines are an excellent development to get down.

If you are a blatant Alien Toy Shop fanboy like me, you feel compelled to settle/trade almost every time. This excellent starting hand may be one of the few exceptions (and remember old earth may feel a need to settle due to his trade bonus).

E +1/+1 Dev for me with the S/T close second.
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