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Subject: Well armed citizenry stopping crimes... true stories? rss

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Neil Carr
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I was just reading in the paper about a Texas bill to let gun be carried on campuses there. The main argument put forward is that it would help prevent the kind of massacre that occurred at Virginia Tech.

It isn't really the debate that I'm interested in with this post. There have been similar initiatives being put forward around the country for a long time now, particularly after Columbine.

What I come to wonder about when I read about these initiatives is that I never hear any news stories where this scenario plays out. Some thug tries to rob a bank, or a psycho goes on a killing spree, but then out of the blue a gun carrying citizen just happens to be on the scene and is able to end the situation before police arrive.

I don't have any problem with that situation, if people are going to be carrying guns I'd hope that they'd ultimately be of use in stopping crimes, however I NEVER hear of this ever playing out in this manner.

I'm sure there are plenty of stories that don't make the news. People have a gun and flash it at the thug and in some way chase the guy off, etc.

But what about your full blown "hollywood" type of moment where the criminal is already waving the gun around or even shooting, but thankfully our good old boy just happened to be drinking his coffee nearby and is able to take down the punk before too much damage is caused?

Can anyone point to any news stories out there? I'd like to read them. It just seems odd that with the vast number of guns that are in the US that we don't ever hear anything like this happening.
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CHAPEL
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You don't hear much about it because really only two kinds of people besides law enforcements carry guns. Criminals and Cowards.

Criminals are at a point in their life that they just don't give a fuck about living or dying, and they'll shoot it out to the bitter end. Their life has little meaning to them.

Cowards are quite the opposite. They live in a constant fear of death, so much so that they think that a weapon will protect them from said death. They value their own skin over honor. But really when the time comes to actually killing another person in a shootout or having to stick their neck out to save other people, they live up to their namesake.

Guns don't make you a hero. They just give you a "perception" of power.
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Flying Arrow
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Colorado church shooting stopped by armed security guard:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/09/church.shooting/index.html



Grandmother foils would-be burglar:

http://www.wpxi.com/news/17223812/detail.html



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James Ludlow
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MWChapel wrote:
You don't hear much about it because really only two kinds of people besides law enforcements carry guns. Criminals and Cowards.


This is such obvious nonsense that I can't tell if you're being serious or not.


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Vincent
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The Utah mall shooting a couple of years ago probably would have been much worse if an off-duty cop hadn't been there to exchange fire with the creep until the police arrived.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/13/national/main24667...
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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Mooninite wrote:
The Utah mall shooting a couple of years ago probably would have been much worse if an off-duty cop hadn't been there to exchange fire with the creep until the police arrived.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/13/national/main24667...


To be pefectly honest though, he wasn't a civilian so he isn't exactly the type of person the OP was asking about.
 
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http://www.armed-citizens.com/ArmedCitizens/ArmedCitizens.as...

NRA's site with a plethora of information:

http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/default.aspx

My dad used his pistol to detain a man who tried to rob him at his car dealership in Mike's hometown of Albuquerque. I stopped an assault on myself, wife and 4 month old baby in a parking garage by simply showing my pistol to the assailant. In another incident I was camping in a remote area of Idaho when two men approached my campsite after dark. I allowed them to see me take my pistol from it's holster and put it into my coat pocket and kept my hand in my pocket. Within 10 seconds they looked at each other and left.

What a bunch of cowards we are.
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Paul DeStefano
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DWTripp wrote:
I was camping in a remote area of Idaho when two men approached my campsite after dark. I allowed them to see me take my pistol from it's holster and put it into my coat pocket and kept my hand in my pocket. Within 10 seconds they looked at each other and left.


I think they just recognized you and decided it wasn't worth the effort for having to put up with the forum postings you would write about them.
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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It is also interesting to contrast the number of prevented or minimized crimes due to armed citizens compared to the number of weapons stolen from those citizens and the number of crimes committed with those weapons. According this DOJ article, between 85 and 94 an averahe of 275,000 weapons were stolen a year.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf

I haven't crunched the numbers but I bet they would indicate that when you buy a hand gun, that gun is much more likely to be stolen and used in a crime than used by you stopping one. At least as far as probability goes.
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TheChin! wrote:
It is also interesting to contrast the number of prevented or minimized crimes due to armed citizens compared to the number of weapons stolen from those citizens and the number of crimes committed with those weapons. According this DOJ article, between 85 and 94 an averahe of 275,000 weapons were stolen a year.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf

I haven't crunched the numbers but I bet they would indicate that when you buy a hand gun, that gun is much more likely to be stolen and used in a crime than used by you stopping one. At least as far as probability goes.


The estimates for the number of crimes prevented a year vary widely due to different sampling techniques. However, they vary from 100,000 to 6 million.

If the true amount is even 5% of the maximum, then it is more likely the gun will be used to prevent a crime then be stolen.
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Mr. Chris
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echoota wrote:
It just seems odd that with the vast number of guns that are in the US that we don't ever hear anything like this happening.


I'd also take into account that many of the guns owned in the US stay at home when their owner goes out - either because the law doesn't allow concealed caryy in their state or they are going to a place that is posted as a "no concealed carry" location/event.

Regardless, can the number of prevented crimes ever be established? How many crimes were prevented just by the intended victum not backing down - the gun might not even factor in? How many crimes were not attempted because the victum 'might" be carrying a gun? Or simply, how many robberies are stopped and not reported to authorities?

I'd say that the net of responsible gun ownership is positive, as it prevents more crime than it enables (criminals with stolen guns.)

EDIT: Editited for grammer, because I'm a nerd that way.
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Max Fightmaster
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But that wouldn't give you a figure for how many guns are used to perpetrate crimes Vs the number used to stop one (each year). Which seems like a far more interesting figure, at least so far as I'm concerned.

Don't get me wrong, your figure is an interesting one... but on its own it's not a winner for either side.

EDIT: Sorry, was responding to SpaceGhost, should have quoted.
 
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Grift wrote:
But that wouldn't give you a figure for how many guns are used to perpetrate crimes Vs the number used to stop one (each year). Which seems like a far more interesting figure, at least so far as I'm concerned.

Don't get me wrong, your figure is an interesting one... but on its own it's not a winner for either side.

EDIT: Sorry, was responding to SpaceGhost, should have quoted.


The only estimate that I could find was 1994's from the Department of Justice -- it was 1.3 million crimes were committed with guns, that number represents 29% of crimes for that year.
 
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CHAPEL
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The only trend I've ever noticed is that gun owners always seem to have a story, but non-gun owners not so much. So either gun owners seem to attract trouble more than non-gun owners, or they do great job bullshitting.
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Scott Russell
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Well you don't see too many armed robberies at gun shows and there's a lot of cash floating around.
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Scott Russell
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MWChapel wrote:
The only trend I've ever noticed is that gun owners always seem to have a story, but non-gun owners not so much. So either gun owners seem to attract trouble more than non-gun owners, or they do great job bullshitting.


My unarmed sister-in-law was mugged (twice) before deciding that she didn't want to live in Chicago.

I think you are leaving out all the reports of muggings, carjackings and other assualts on unarmed victims. Maybe they don't talk about it, but the stories are in the news.
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James Ludlow
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qzhdad wrote:
Well you don't see too many armed robberies at gun shows and there's a lot of cash floating around.


This guy wasn't stopped with a firearm, but he's still a moron.
http://www.kansas.com/news/crime-courts/story/744197.html

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Steve Cates
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Here's a Civil Gun Defense Blog. If you want to read a bunch of stories at one place.

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/hostage.h...
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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Hmmm, interesting statistics and they go right along with my own personal experience. I've only owned a gun for about a week now and I've had it stolen twice, and accidentally shot myself with it once. HOWEVER, I've prevented 10 crimes already, so I feel good about it.
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J
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I'm watching Boston Legal on DVD and Denny Crane, the Republican lawyer and gun enthusiast played by Bill Shatner, has a negligent discharge in EVERY SHOW where he touches a firearm. It's blatant propaganda but still hilarious. Great show by the way.
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Paul DeStefano
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bjlillo wrote:
I'm the fat guy in the Vikings sweatshirt.


Is this some sort of sociology statement about being a fat guy shooting at diet Coke?
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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I wager I weight about the same as BJ and I'd definitely shoot at a Diet Coke before any other beverage.
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I carry a gun just about 24/7 and I have zero exciting stories about having to use a firearm, thank God.
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chiddler wrote:
GreatAtuin wrote:
echoota wrote:
It just seems odd that with the vast number of guns that are in the US that we don't ever hear anything like this happening.


I'd also take into account that many of the guns owned in the US stay at home when their owner goes out - either because the law doesn't allow concealed caryy in their state or they are going to a place that is posted as a "no concealed carry" location/event.

Regardless, can the number of prevented crimes ever be established? How many crimes were prevented just by the intended victum not backing down - the gun might not even factor in? How many crimes were not attempted because the victum 'might" be carrying a gun? Or simply, how many robberies are stopped and not reported to authorities?

I'd say that the net of responsible gun ownership is positive, as it prevents more crime than it enables (criminals with stolen guns.)

EDIT: Editited for grammer, because I'm a nerd that way.



In nations where civilians are not armed, criminals very rarely carry guns either. Gun crime in the UK, for example is almost wholly limited to gangs using guns against other gangs who also have guns. You might get mugged in the UK, but never at gunpoint. If you distrub a burglar in your home, its extremely unlikely they will have a gun.

Civilian ownership creates an arms race with criminals, and the criminals are always going tio be more willing (and more prepared) to fire.


I'd be interested to see how the UK stabbings per capita measurs up to the US's stabbings per capita. I googled it and didn't have time to sift through the results.
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chiddler wrote:


In nations where civilians are not armed, criminals very rarely carry guns either. Gun crime in the UK, for example is almost wholly limited to gangs using guns against other gangs who also have guns. You might get mugged in the UK, but never at gunpoint. If you distrub a burglar in your home, its extremely unlikely they will have a gun.

Civilian ownership creates an arms race with criminals, and the criminals are always going tio be more willing (and more prepared) to fire.


It's always helpful to have something other than an mere opinion about America when discussing it... some depth of understanding about how this nation came to be, how it unfettered itself from it's burdensome rulers, how huge it is, how dangerous and courageous all the people who settled it were and what they underwent to bring a massive piece of real estate into it's current form.

To simply dismiss the whole subject by saying something as pointless as "Civilian ownership creates an arms race with criminals" indicates you don't have a clear understanding of America and it's history. For better or worse guns are a part of the history of this nation and were vital in it's formation. That's why we have the right to own them. Since this is a larger country than any European nation and since it's much more a mixing pot of cultures than say, New Zealand, the same standards and conditions don't apply... even forgetting for a moment that extreme differences in how New Zealand came into being versus the USA.

It's factual that criminals will obtain and use weapons even in nations where it's illegal for citizens to own them. And it's factual for the most part that in America gun crime (outside of gang violence) is less in states, cities and areas where personal gun ownership is high.

Firearms are a part of life on planet Earth whether you live in America or Tanzania. They exist, have existed and won't go away... ever. And hell, Americans didn't even invent them. Mostly it's wise to grasp the culture one lives in and understand the risks and freedoms inherent in that culture. Guns are a part of America and not choosing to own one is no smarter or dumber than choosing to own one. The important distinction is that we have the right to choose. You don't.
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