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Subject: Resubmitting edited images of others -- is this acceptable? rss

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I've noticed a trend of taking an existing image posted on the Geek, adjusting it and then submitting it as a new image. This seems to be primarily game cover images taken at an angle. It appears to be that the image is downloaded, adjusted to eliminate the angle and then resubmitted. (Clearly it is the same image, as the same flaws appear in both.)

These images do make a better representative image (IMHO) but, of the cases I've noticed of this happening, the person uploading the corrected image is not the original image uploader. So my question is: Is this acceptable?

If it is, shouldn't the image modifier get permission from the original poster? (I'm not saying they didn't.) Yes, this second question is rhetorical -- I'm just looking for a little awareness.

Edit: "a" little awareness
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Daniel Danzer
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I`d offer the Original Submitter to fix it and give it back to him to upload again, if he has no program to do this with.

The rest is not acceptable, if not changed for a totally diffeent purpose (I took a box back, cropped it and made signs of it showing the faults and uploaded it - I could have taken the box back myself, but what for?).
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The submitter should get permission from the original poster. When you mod images, assume that the submitter has done so.
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Short answer: No

Long Answer:
I would say only if you get permission from the original poster and then I like the suggestion of giving it back to the OP for them to resubmit.

I have seen at least one of my images that has been cropped and resubmitted and at no stage of the process was I consulted shake
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Which leads to another point with image modding. It would help if we could see whether the uploader ticked the this is an original image box, or the I have permission box. If they've claimed it as original, and the modders believe it not to be, that should be a valid reason for rejection of the image.
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William Crispin
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gamephotos wrote:
dakarp wrote:
When you mod images, assume that the submitter has done so.

Given the prevailing attitude to BGG content - that all content is freely available and that anyone can do anything they like with it - I'd suggest that when you mod you assume that the submitter has not gained permission from the original poster.

At the very least, the images should reference the original image and original poster.

I doubt that the submitter of these "adjusted" images asked permission from anybody, not because he thinks that permission would be denied, but because he thinks that all content is his to do with as he wishes.

People need to be reminded constantly that the content on BGG belongs to the original submitter and that explicit permission is required if you want to copy it, change it, or use it anywhere outside of BGG.


So basically an admin has (re)stated the modding policy and you are suggesting that that not be followed.
 
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William Crispin
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gamephotos wrote:
wwscrispin wrote:
So basically an admin has (re)stated the modding policy and you are suggesting that that not be followed.

Yes, I am. Based on my own experiences with images on BGG, there are many instances where images have been uploaded without gaining the original artist's approval.

In the case of taking a BGG image, altering it and uploading the altered image, I'd be willing to bet that 90%+ of these images are being uploaded without the permission of the original artist.

Also, the custom when uploading images that you didn't create is to indicate in the caption where the image came from and that permission was given to upload the image to BGG.

Just because an Admin makes a statement does not mean that a rule is cast in stone. If I disagree with a statement, I'm entitled to indicate my disagreement. In this case, I happen to think the "head in the sand" policy is wrong and that BGG policy should be aimed at protecting the rights of the original submitters, not on turning a blind eye to the cloners.


There are very good reasons not to have sites do user mod IP enforcement. Which is why it has been clearly stated, and not as an opinion, that that is not supposed to happen here. You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to suggest and encourage people to break the site rules.
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Niels B.
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Hey guys,

everybody can relax a bit, alright? No need for pitchforks and torches. I'm the guy you're all talking about. I guarantee you there was no (real) money made here, nobody's intellectual property was stolen, nobody was hurt. These are the facts, so that you know what you are discussing about (hopefully discussion will end after the explanation though...) :

1. I had the idea to go through the games list to see where I could 'improve' the photos and make the boxes 'flat'. I looked for images, which were taken at an angle to avoid reflection. I know from my own experience that sometimes the only possibility to avoid this to use an angle.
Here's an example:
and what I made of it ->
 


2. The purpose was originally to provide a 'typical' representative image, i.e. the flat box. This seems to be the preferred version here, so there you have my reasoning. It's not about the GG (although I don't mind it, of course), it's not about becoming 'famous' (I cannot propose the representative image anyway, so the whole exercise has become kind of futile) or getting an image uploader microbadge or whatever.

3. And here's the point: you're right, I didn't ask for permission to alter the images. It just didn't think anyone would mind. Anyway, I'm therefore thankful for the reminder of the original poster. At least I thumbed all the pictures, after using them.

4. After reading this thread I went through all the pictures I edited and submitted (around 40 or so) and wrote an geekmail to every image uploader, asking for a late permission to alter the image and upload it again. I offered 0.25 GG as commission or the alternative to let it delete by an admin. (duchamp, no offense to you or the people thumbing your response, but why would I ask permission to alter the image and then give it back the original uploader, so that he can re-submit it and get the GG? So that I can propose it as rep. image at least, which doesn't bring a n y benefit at all? Let's be honest then and say it is forbidden to alter it.)

5. So far all the responses I got (9-10 people) were in the line of: "thanks for asking, do what you want with the pictures." I'm waiting for the rest to respond, and if anyone refuses I'll contact dakarp to delete the picture and strip me of the GG.

6. I'll make it a point to give everyone 0.25 GG, whether he wants it or not. Not to 'buy' his image rights, or anything, but rather to acknowledge his prior work. He's made 1.25 with it, I'll make 0.75.

7. For some photos I still don't ask permission and will not ask in the future: ca. 20% of the photos had an N/A, i.e. the original uploader has deleted his account or something alike. There I just use it.

8. Lesson learned: an (IMHO) good idea, turned out to be too much work for what it is worth. Search for a picture, which can be improved, fiddle around with it and see, if it is really improvable and adds anything, contact the uploader for permission, upload, commission the uploader. I mean, I agree with these (necessary) steps, but it is just too much work now. So, I think I'll refrain from the image alteration for now. If I do it in the future I'll ask permission first.

9. BTW, here's another example of 'improvement':
->


Now, one last thing for you to discuss maybe: how to deal with the thousands of promotional images, which are uploaded here every day? Who would you ask for permission to alter such an image? Even if the original uploader had the permission to upload it (I very much doubt it in most cases, to be honest), who would you contact then? I'm pretty sure the uploader couldn't give me permission to do so. And some game companies will laugh their ass off, if I ask them whether I could alter a promotional image they made for a 10 year old game. So, just do it?
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William Crispin
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Why not have some way to flag images in the mod queue as a potential IP issue that goes directly to the admins?
 
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Andrew Nichols
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How would this not be considered fair use anyway? It seems to me that Schlupp has been doing valuable work for the BGG community. Why not just stick a citation of the original image in the caption and be done with it.
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Schlupp wrote:
I'm the guy you're all talking about.
Actually you are not the person I was talking about, that was somebody entirely different ninja
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wwscrispin wrote:
Why not have some way to flag images in the mod queue as a potential IP issue that goes directly to the admins?
They could do that, but would it actually be followed? For example, a game like Agricola (not counting the countless dozens of photos of pimped out copies and bits) has waaaay to many legit images to begin with. Someone submits an image of a set of 7 cards, another user will submit those same 7 cards, but seperated into 7 different images but straight on without any angle. There are just so many cases of something like this that modding someone existing image just seems to pale in comparison to that issue.
 
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Geni Palladin
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I am one of the people that got an email from Schlupp - he has taken 3 images from me so far.

And before I saw this thread, I wrote him back. Here is what I wrote him:

Quote:

Hi Niels,

I don't know, how the copyright is here. Maybe BGG photos are copyrighted by BGG, but I am not sure.

I propose that you open a forum thread where you start to discuss this. I would especially like to know, what "gamephotos" or some BGG admin say to this!


By the way, I HATE flat images from game boxes (gamephotos likes them). The reason is, that I think, flat images look quite artificial, or like in a promotional booklet. Certainly, they may look great if you "make" you BGGgallery of owned games, but I prefer to see the dimensions of the whole box.

When you think that I have 1400+ games, you can imagine, that I sometimes search for a certain game, but have forgotten if the box was big, small, thin or thick. All this I can see in my images! And seeing the dimensions is a good information, because buying new games can also be a problem of storing space...

Of course, if you look at some newer games you can assume that the gamebox is HUGE. And even if you think, the proportions look like a normal game box, you can be surprised to see it in reality. I think at "Planet Steam" from LudoArt for example: the box is 80 cm long, 30 cm wide and 10 cm thick!!!!!

But the main point, why I don't like your idea to rework images from others: you loose the correct proportions most times I think! If you look at your "Imperio Cobra" image for example: you have made a rectangle image - but the box is absolutely SQUARE! This gives a wrong information about the game box!

And a last point. I have uploaded some 500+ images of game boxes (I did not count them). I could have made flat images easily - see "Namibia" for example, which has a flat image from me - and could do this again today, of course. But for the above mentioned reasons, I don't want to do this, since I think my images are clear enough and gives you a lot information about the game box.

Anyway, I propose again, that you open a thread about this or ask a BGG admin, what is allowed and what is forbidden. I hope to see that thread soon and I think, I will add my (personal and subjective) thoughts there too....


I hope, you understand my points and don't feel angry about what I said. As for the images you have already uploaded: this is o.k, leave them there - there are surely some people who enjoy them.

Geni


so it's clear, that I don't like to find some images from old games (with only photos from me for example) with some edited images...
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Schlupp wrote:
Here's an example:
and what I made of it ->
 


That's amazing what you did with that image. A for your troubles sir!
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Ryan Powers
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gamephotos wrote:

People need to be reminded constantly that the content on BGG belongs to the original submitter and that explicit permission is required if you want to copy it, change it, or use it anywhere outside of BGG.


I agree with this in theory (very strongly in fact), but I think your stated method of "reminding" them is misguided. It sounds good, but isn't actually workable.

As a modder you likely don't have any way to tell either way. The submitter has "officially" answered the question as part of the submission process. Modders simply don't have the tools available to enforce whether the submitter was being truthful this in a general sense. And without the tools to do so, the mod system isn't' the place to take care of it.
 
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moxtaveto wrote:


so it's clear, that I don't like to find some images from old games (with only photos from me for example) with some edited images...


While I agree you should have a say, I find your reasoning strange.

It's not like the image replaces yours in the gallery. And if it replaces yours as a representative image, well then clearly more people think it should be the other way.

That doesn't make taking the image right, and I fully support you in your decision. But I wonder if you've really thought your reasons all the way through.
 
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Daniel Danzer
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Schlupp wrote:
I guarantee you ... nobody's intellectual property was stolen, nobody was hurt. These are the facts ...

Well, some people seem to disagree here to some degree.

Schlupp wrote:
1. I had the idea to go through the games list to see where I could 'improve' the photos and make the boxes 'flat'. I looked for images, which were taken at an angle to avoid reflection. I know from my own experience that sometimes the only possibility to avoid this to use an angle.
(bold by me. D.)
Here's an example:
and what I made of it ->
 


You assume to know, WHY the pictures were made this way and want to "improve" them. But what, if people made the shots to let you see how "high" the box is, and how it looks like from the side? BTW, this box cover has different dimensions - it is almost (if not absolutely square, instead of your "flat" one (see also below for another example).

Schlupp wrote:
4. After reading this thread I went through all the pictures I edited and submitted (around 40 or so) and wrote an geekmail to every image uploader, asking for a late permission to alter the image and upload it again. I offered 0.25 GG as commission or the alternative to let it delete by an admin. (duchamp, no offense to you or the people thumbing your response, but why would I ask permission to alter the image and then give it back the original uploader, so that he can re-submit it and get the GG? So that I can propose it as rep. image at least, which doesn't bring a n y benefit at all? Let's be honest then and say it is forbidden to alter it.)

It doesn`t have to be forbidden. Just find a way to share the benefit of the picture (like you have done - see below).

Schlupp wrote:
5. So far all the responses I got (9-10 people) were in the line of: "thanks for asking, do what you want with the pictures." I'm waiting for the rest to respond, and if anyone refuses I'll contact dakarp to delete the picture and strip me of the GG.

I once asked an admin to do this (I got doubled for something) - and got the answer that it is impossible to take my from me ...

Schlupp wrote:
8. Lesson learned: an (IMHO) good idea, turned out to be too much work for what it is worth. Search for a picture, which can be improved, fiddle around with it and see, if it is really improvable and adds anything, contact the uploader for permission, upload, commission the uploader. I mean, I agree with these (necessary) steps, but it is just too much work now. So, I think I'll refrain from the image alteration for now. If I do it in the future I'll ask permission first.

Doesn`t sound as too much "work" to me. If you like to do it - do it. If you are tired of it, just leave it.

Schlupp wrote:
Now, one last thing for you to discuss maybe: how to deal with the thousands of promotional images, which are uploaded here every day? Who would you ask for permission to alter such an image? Even if the original uploader had the permission to upload it (I very much doubt it in most cases, to be honest), who would you contact then? I'm pretty sure the uploader couldn't give me permission to do so. And some game companies will laugh their ass off, if I ask them whether I could alter a promotional image they made for a 10 year old game. So, just do it?

In the case you described here, do it.

moxtaveto wrote:
But the main point, why I don't like your idea to rework images from others: you loose the correct proportions most times I think! If you look at your "Imperio Cobra" image for example: you have made a rectangle image - but the box is absolutely SQUARE! This gives a wrong information about the game box!

Anyway, I propose again, that you open a thread about this or ask a BGG admin, what is allowed and what is forbidden. I hope to see that thread soon and I think, I will add my (personal and subjective) thoughts there too...


 

I`d say: Whatever you do, do it properly. And ask people or start a discussion about something by yourself, before you have to explain yourself. This would have been a better way (to follow in the future).

Back to the OP and my first statement: Assuming that people around the world think very differently about their contributions here I think it as self-evident to ask them for permission (as you are compelled to do with other pictures, too!) if you use their submitted material for altering. There are exceptions from that, but they should be exceptions, not the rule.

Another question: Will you re-check your flat boxes for the right proportions (Sputnik, En Busca del Imperio Cobra, Azuma, Ritter ohne Furcht und Adel ...) correct and upload them again, and ask the admins for deletion of the wrong ones - or will something else have to do this?
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Geni Palladin
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flat image with the correct proportions looks like this:

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Niels B.
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My God, please take it easy and relax. I cannot believe how much time this already has taken. Everybody be sure: I will never do it again (or the next time I think twice about outing myself...).

Sigh, let's dig in... soblue

duchamp wrote:
Schlupp wrote:
I guarantee you ... nobody's intellectual property was stolen, nobody was hurt. These are the facts ...

Well, some people seem to disagree here to some degree.

Yeah, most of them (including you), were not a victim of my activities, though...

duchamp wrote:
Schlupp wrote:
1. I had the idea to go through the games list to see where I could 'improve' the photos and make the boxes 'flat'. I looked for images, which were taken at an angle to avoid reflection. I know from my own experience that sometimes the only possibility to avoid this to use an angle.
(bold by me. D.)
Here's an example:
and what I made of it ->
 


You assume to know, WHY the pictures were made this way and want to "improve" them. But what, if people made the shots to let you see how "high" the box is, and how it looks like from the side? BTW, this box cover has different dimensions - it is almost (if not absolutely square, instead of your "flat" one (see also below for another example).

You're right, my bad. But you can still see the dimensions. The original picture wasn't deleted. You just have to browse the picture gallery. What's the problem? Do you think people will see the representative picture and go: "Oh my, it only shows the flat picture, how can I know what the dimensions are?" And even if you see it in 3-D you don't have the actual dimensions, unless you put a hand next to it or a measurement tape.

duchamp wrote:
Schlupp wrote:
4. After reading this thread I went through all the pictures I edited and submitted (around 40 or so) and wrote an geekmail to every image uploader, asking for a late permission to alter the image and upload it again. I offered 0.25 GG as commission or the alternative to let it delete by an admin. (duchamp, no offense to you or the people thumbing your response, but why would I ask permission to alter the image and then give it back the original uploader, so that he can re-submit it and get the GG? So that I can propose it as rep. image at least, which doesn't bring a n y benefit at all? Let's be honest then and say it is forbidden to alter it.)

It doesn`t have to be forbidden. Just find a way to share the benefit of the picture (like you have done - see below).

I'm not 100% sure, but it seems you are ok with the 1.25/0.75 ratio...? Well, it seems like a fair deal to me.

duchamp wrote:
Schlupp wrote:
5. So far all the responses I got (9-10 people) were in the line of: "thanks for asking, do what you want with the pictures." I'm waiting for the rest to respond, and if anyone refuses I'll contact dakarp to delete the picture and strip me of the GG.

I once asked an admin to do this (I got doubled for something) - and got the answer that it is impossible to take my from me ...

No worries, dude. I'm sure you think I'm sitting in my lair on a heap of GG, laughing my ass off that no one can take it away from me again. But I gave the complete GG I received for 4 of the pictures to people, who gave me the permission to alter images, but were not too comfortable with it (2 out of around 30). I'm sure you'll be checking my Tips Given to be sure, and point me to any mistakes I made.
And in addition: it's f***ing GeekGold, man. It's worth, what, a dollar for 10 GG? I'll give back whatever I can to whomever felt betrayed or used. But I think I cannot do more than that.

duchamp wrote:
Schlupp wrote:
8. Lesson learned: an (IMHO) good idea, turned out to be too much work for what it is worth. Search for a picture, which can be improved, fiddle around with it and see, if it is really improvable and adds anything, contact the uploader for permission, upload, commission the uploader. I mean, I agree with these (necessary) steps, but it is just too much work now. So, I think I'll refrain from the image alteration for now. If I do it in the future I'll ask permission first.

Doesn`t sound as too much "work" to me. If you like to do it - do it. If you are tired of it, just leave it.

Yeah, thanks for the "tip". I wouldn't have figured it out.

duchamp wrote:
Schlupp wrote:
Now, one last thing for you to discuss maybe: how to deal with the thousands of promotional images, which are uploaded here every day? Who would you ask for permission to alter such an image? Even if the original uploader had the permission to upload it (I very much doubt it in most cases, to be honest), who would you contact then? I'm pretty sure the uploader couldn't give me permission to do so. And some game companies will laugh their ass off, if I ask them whether I could alter a promotional image they made for a 10 year old game. So, just do it?

In the case you described here, do it.

You're suggesting to contact the game publisher and ask them, if I can alter a promotional image they made for a game they sold around a decade ago? Or you're saying just alter it and be done with it? In case the first one is correct, I'd love to see a new thread by you discussing the intellectual property of promotional pictures.

duchamp wrote:
moxtaveto wrote:
But the main point, why I don't like your idea to rework images from others: you loose the correct proportions most times I think! If you look at your "Imperio Cobra" image for example: you have made a rectangle image - but the box is absolutely SQUARE! This gives a wrong information about the game box!

Anyway, I propose again, that you open a thread about this or ask a BGG admin, what is allowed and what is forbidden. I hope to see that thread soon and I think, I will add my (personal and subjective) thoughts there too...

 

I`d say: Whatever you do, do it properly. And ask people or start a discussion about something by yourself, before you have to explain yourself. This would have been a better way (to follow in the future).

Back to the OP and my first statement: Assuming that people around the world think very differently about their contributions here I think it as self-evident to ask them for permission (as you are compelled to do with other pictures, too!) if you use their submitted material for altering. There are exceptions from that, but they should be exceptions, not the rule.
Another question: Will you re-check your flat boxes for the right proportions (Sputnik, En Busca del Imperio Cobra, Azuma, Ritter ohne Furcht und Adel ...) correct and upload them again, and ask the admins for deletion of the wrong ones - or will something else have to do this?

As you have already done the re-checking (so you can stop giving the impression there are many, many more, i.e. the "..."), I won't do it again, but ask an admin to delete the pictures in question.
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Geni Palladin
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How about this kind of box-images, showing all 4 sides (similar ideas can be seen on some of the Alea games, where the box image continues to the sides!)?



If this idea would be applied, we would need to make new box images for just about 40000 games......gulp
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Niels B.
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moxtaveto wrote:
How about this kind of box-images, showing all 4 sides (similar ideas can be seen on some of the Alea games, where the box image continues to the sides!)?



If this idea would be applied, we would need to make new box images for just about 40000 games......gulp

Don't count on me for this...

But seriously, I think those are in a way better, and more professionally looking than the angled 3D pictures.
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Schlupp wrote:
My God, please take it easy and relax. I cannot believe how much time this already has taken.

I am pretty relaxed. To me, you seem to be the one upset here.

Schlupp wrote:
I'm sure you think I'm sitting in my lair on a heap of GG, laughing my ass off that no one can take it away from me again. But I gave the complete GG I received for 4 of the pictures to people, who gave me the permission to alter images, but were not too comfortable with it (2 out of around 30). I'm sure you'll be checking my Tips Given to be sure, and point me to any mistakes I made.

I don`t.

Schlupp wrote:
duchamp wrote:
Schlupp wrote:
Now, one last thing for you to discuss maybe: how to deal with the thousands of promotional images, which are uploaded here every day? Who would you ask for permission to alter such an image? ... So, just do it?

In the case you described here, do it.

You're suggesting to contact the game publisher and ask them, if I can alter a promotional image they made for a game they sold around a decade ago? Or you're saying just alter it and be done with it? In case the first one is correct, I'd love to see a new thread by you discussing the intellectual property of promotional pictures.

The second.

Schlupp wrote:
duchamp wrote:
Another question: Will you re-check your flat boxes for the right proportions (Sputnik, En Busca del Imperio Cobra, Azuma, Ritter ohne Furcht und Adel ...) correct and upload them again, and ask the admins for deletion of the wrong ones - or will something else have to do this?


As you have already done the re-checking (so you can stop giving the impression there are many, many more, i.e. the "..."), I won't do it again, but ask an admin to delete the pictures in question.

I just took a short glance (a couple of minutes) and saw some that were obviously incorrect. I didn`t do a "re-check" for all of them. And I didn`t give any "impression there are many, many more". Excuse me for the "..."

Being so sensitive about the reactions yourself, I wonder how you could assume that others being not as sensitive concerning their images.

moxtaveto wrote:
How about this kind of box-images, showing all 4 sides (similar ideas can be seen on some of the Alea games, where the box image continues to the sides!)?


I do like the example, but I think it is good enough to have "flat" images besides the one showing the dimensions.

moxtaveto wrote:
If this idea would be applied, we would need to make new box images for just about 40000 games......gulp

Fortunately, there is no necessity at all to treat ALL games absolutely the same. And no necessity to have ALL information about a game box in a single picture.
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duchamp wrote:

Being so sensitive about the reactions yourself, I wonder how you could assume that others being not as sensitive concerning their images.

(Hopefully) last thing on this, but you'll never know. I'm sensitive about a reaction, if I feel I'm being attacked for something I did with good intentions. Especially if it is coming from someone, who has no direct stake in this. Thankfully all the people were overall ok or even happy with the changes (except moxtaveto and another user). So all is good. I hope. Ok? Peace?
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Schlupp wrote:
Thankfully all the people were overall ok or even happy with the changes (except moxtaveto and another user). So all is good. I hope. Ok? Peace?

kiss thumbsup

Cheers,

another user
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Schlupp,
Your submissions were the ones I first noticed but no means the only ones nor the ones that prompted the post. I've spent a fair amount of time working in PhotoShop and know that your modifications weren't a quick way to grab gg. And as I wrote in my original post, I think that they were generally an improvement -- but that's just my opinion and doesn't give me the right to modify the work of others without permission.

I applaud you for standing up, explaining yourself and contributing to the dialogue. And for doing the right thing. (No good deed goes unpunished!) As I stated in the original post, I'm just looking for a little awareness that permission should be asked for.
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