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Subject: Mexico-US border rss

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Isaac Citrom
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In another thread, Tripp quipped:

Quote:
The coke was a small part of a 1 kilo "party-pack" that Mexican President Calderon gave Hillary Clinton as a gift of appreciation last week. He was so grateful that she publically blamed America for Mexico's crime and murder problems that he wanted to send a little gift to Barack and some of the other acknowledged coke heads at 1600 Pennsylvania.


Suddenly, the porous Mexico-US border is a problem to be dealt with--typical. So, what's the difference? It is illegal for firearms to be trafficked into Mexico. It is causing irreparable harm over there. Mexican citizens don't appreciate it and the Mexican government is both concerned and wants to work to stop it. It is illegal after all.

I've already popped off an email to Merriam-Webster to update their picture dictionary for hypocrisy and stooge.

Can't the weapons just be reclassified as undocumented trade implements.
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I grew up on that border. Anyone who thinks America is the cause of Mexico's corruption is a moron. I'm not exactly sure what political capital Hillary thinks she gained by blaming the USA but it seems to be the tone Obama has set. He's over in Europe now blaming America for the economic woes Europe has experienced.

Next thing you know he'll be asking the UN to take over General Motors and AIG so they'll stop harming foreign auto makers and insurance companies.

This Obama guy is an idiot.
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DWTripp wrote:

This Obama guy is an idiot.


Indeed! For any supporter of W. Bush, Obama is indeed the definitive idiot.
I'll worry the day these people start to appreciate him.
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David desJardins
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DWTripp wrote:
I grew up on that border. Anyone who thinks America is the cause of Mexico's corruption is a moron.


I don't think the quote claimed that the US is the cause of Mexico's corruption. It claimed that the US is a significant cause of Mexican gun violence. That's an objective fact, as a large fraction of the guns used in Mexican gun violence are bought in the US and smuggled into Mexico.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
I grew up on that border. Anyone who thinks America is the cause of Mexico's corruption is a moron.


I don't think the quote claimed that the US is the cause of Mexico's corruption. It claimed that the US is a significant cause of Mexican gun violence. That's an objective fact, as a large fraction of the guns used in Mexican gun violence are bought in the US and smuggled into Mexico.


"And since we know that the vast majority, 90% of that [weaponry] comes from our country, we're going to try to stop it from getting there in the first place," Clinton said.

Another factor fueling the bloody Mexican turf battles, Clinton said, is America's "insatiable" demand for illegal drugs.


Quibble all you want with semantics... she clearly is blaming America for the situation. I'm not sure who loaded up that 90% stat or whether it's just a number that sounds great, but I call BS on that too.

We have now arrived at the point where our top people are flying around the world agreeing that if not for the USA and it's lack of internal character, discipline and morality... things would cool down and be rosy for everyone else.

And how are "we" going to stop it? Put the National Guard on the Mexican-American border to protect Mexico from us?

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David desJardins
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DWTripp wrote:
Quibble all you want with semantics... she clearly is blaming America for the situation.


That's only clear to people like you who blame America first. shake

I think she just stated some facts. Are you seriously arguing that America's demand for illegal drugs is not fueling Mexican turf battles?

Quote:
I'm not sure who loaded up that 90% stat or whether it's just a number that sounds great, but I call BS on that too.


Sure, you have no idea where the number comes from and no access to the data but that's enough for you to conclude that it's wrong, because it doesn't fit what you want to believe. Par for the course.
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David desJardins
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DWTripp wrote:
I'm not sure who loaded up that 90% stat or whether it's just a number that sounds great, but I call BS on that too.


Here's where those lying liars from the ATF, who hate gun owners, came up with that BS.

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/cngrtest/ct031709.pdf

It is an undisputable fact that the weapons and firearms used to fuel the drug-related violence in Mexico can be traced back to guns procured legally or illegally here.

Because firearms are not readily available in Mexico, drug traffickers have aggressively turned to the U.S. as their primary source. Firearms are routinely being transported from the U.S. into Mexico in violation of both U.S. and Mexican law. In fact, according to ATF’s National Tracing Center, 90 percent of the weapons that could be traced were determined to have originated from various sources within the U.S.


I think he underestimates Tripp's ability to dispute just about anything.
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Philipp Schuster
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But the US ARE the reson for the drug-related violence. A few years ago, most of the cocaine from south America was brought into the US via maritime routes through the Gulf of Mexico. This was mostly handled by Colombian organizations, ie the producers themselves (not the coca farmers of course but the organizations they are selling to). The US Navy and Coastguard did a very good job of interdicting those routes, so the transshipment routes shifted to mainland Mexico. Only then did the Mexican cartels get so powerful, handling the transportation from Colombia and Peru via central America and mexico to the US.

But you can hardly blame the US for cracking down on cocaine smuggling. And you cannot blame the US for consuming cocaine. I mean, it's not that the US officials are not trying to fight it.

Quote:
It is an undisputable fact that the weapons and firearms used to fuel the drug-related violence in Mexico can be traced back to guns procured legally or illegally here.


I dispute that. The weapons and firearms from the US do certainly fuel violence in Mexico, but I daresay it "only" fuels the unorganized violence not directly connected to the drug war. And altough this may be a problem for local law enforcement it's not the real issue.

Fact is that yearly turnovers of the big Mexican cartels is estimated to be about 80 billion $ a year. Organizations like Beltran Leyva, the Sinaloa Cartel or Los Zetas certainly won't have any problems whatsoever to equip elsewhere if guns are not available in the US any longer. A cartel able to organize and handle the transport of whole shiploads of illegal precursor chemicals for Met-production from Asia to Mexico can as well have some sophisticated military hardware delivered too.

About corruption - well, 80 billion $ a year would constitute a sizeable chunk of Mexican total GDP. So the big organizations do have the money to pay more to local law enforcers than the state ever could. It's "plata o plomo", silver or lead. Take the money or take the bullet. When the federal Mexican army is moving into places like Nuevo Laredo or Ciudad Juarez, first thing they do is to disarm local law enforcement and sending them home.
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David desJardins
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Complex wrote:
I dispute that. The weapons and firearms from the US do certainly fuel violence in Mexico, but I daresay it "only" fuels the unorganized violence not directly connected to the drug war.


Doesn't that claim directly contradict the facts stated in the testimony?

Quote:
Organizations like Beltran Leyva, the Sinaloa Cartel or Los Zetas certainly won't have any problems whatsoever to equip elsewhere if guns are not available in the US any longer.


Then why are they getting almost all of their guns from the US, despite the risk of bringing in US law enforcement that is much more of a threat to them than the Mexican government is?
 
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Philipp Schuster
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Nah, the testimony was referring to drug-related-violence, and it's that point I doubt. I also doubt that local Mexican law enforcement has serious troubles dealing with the non-organized crime (which profits the most of the lax US-gun-regulations) in their cities. I mean, they did not have much of a problem before the rise of the Mexican cartels despite guns being smuggled to Mexico back then too. If from now on there would be no guns available in the US anymore, the turf wars between the large cartels and their activities against law-enforcement and the Mexican military would not be affected a bit. There could be less non-drug-related kidnappings (or at least they would be less violent), but it would not hamper the cartels.

Quote:
Then why are they getting almost all of their guns from the US, despite the risk of bringing in US law enforcement that is much more of a threat to them than the Mexican government is?


Convenience. Simple as that. They do have their contacts in the US (somebody has to sell the cocaine after all), guns are relatively easy to come by and US law enforcement are not really a threat. I mean, what happens if you are caught smuggling guns south? You're detained for some months (years? I don't know what you can expect for gun smuggling in the states bordering Mexico). Well, that won't really harm a cartel. The important figures are sitting in Mexico anyways, and those have to fear Mexican forces, not the US border patrol or some county marshal. Except of course if Mexico and the US could agree to let US forces operate inside of Mexico, but Calderon doesn't seem to be that desperate at the moment.

Sure, guns would be a bit more expensive for the cartels if they could not get them in the US. But that's comparable to having to buy your beer in the liquor store 5 miles away instead of the one around the corner. The cartels have a car to easily drive those 5 miles and back again. The "unorganized" criminals don't have a car.

So the question is if it is worth to restrict personal freedom in the US for having no or only very little benefit in the Mexican fight against drug-related violence.
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Isaac Citrom
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Philipp;

I see you are completely not understanding the issues.

No matter how you slice it, no matter from what direction you come at it, it is the US' fault. Americans are fat, stupid, lazy, greedy, profiteers and just plain bad people. Everyone else is good, specificaly in this case, Mexicans.

That China alone has produced 10-15 million of the World's 100 million or so AK-47s (in many variants) is irrelevant as we all know just how difficult it is to acquire Chinese goods.

If the US would not consume so much heroine, Afghan farmers would be forced to plant less lucrative food crops instead, thus further impoverishing them. So, whether Afghan farmers plant poppies to fulfill American demand or whether hypothetically they plant cheap food crops because of a lack of demand for drugs, either way the US is to blame for their plight.

Said another way, that there is a demand for my stolen goods is why a thief might visit my home. The thief, after all, is just fulfilling a demand and he is not to blame in the end for breaking into my home. If the economy weren't so bad, he wouldn't be a thief in the first place. Indeed, it's certainly my fault in some less direct way for puting him in that position.


I think David raises many very valid points. Because the US is so naturally exploitive, the only way I see Mexico and her citizens being protected is to revamp the Mexico-US border. Today we have the technology to much better close an international boundary than ever before. Combining a physical barrier, with technology and with troops, the Mexico-US border can be effectively sealed up. It is the only just thing to do in order to protect Mexico from the US.
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isaacc wrote:
I think David raises many very valid points. Because the US is so naturally exploitive, the only way I see Mexico and her citizens being protected is to revamp the Mexico-US border. Today we have the technology to much better close an international boundary than ever before. Combining a physical barrier, with technology and with troops, the Mexico-US border can be effectively sealed up. It is the only just thing to do in order to protect Mexico from the US.


That's beneath you Isaac. It's got diddly shit to do with the US being exploitative, nor do any of the quotes say that this is the problem. It's got to do with two things - we've a demand for illegal drugs that the Mexican cartels fill. And we've gun laws that allow them to purchase weapons here and take them across the border.

The rest is crap. The cartels are shooting at each other because they're chasing profits that come from our side of the border. If we could eliminate US demand for drugs, they wouldn't have much to shoot at each other over. If we could keep the guns from crossing the border, they would have to find another source for guns, but it would probably be harder and cost them more.

Recognizing the reason things are happening isn't necessarily assigning blame. Taking statements from the administration and saying "oh, they're blaming the US for Mexico's problems" is silly. It's a problem on either side of the border (laws are being broken on both sides, right?).
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DaviddesJ wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
I grew up on that border. Anyone who thinks America is the cause of Mexico's corruption is a moron.


I don't think the quote claimed that the US is the cause of Mexico's corruption. It claimed that the US is a significant cause of Mexican gun violence. That's an objective fact, as a large fraction of the guns used in Mexican gun violence are bought in the US and smuggled into Mexico.


Are the guns shooting people on there own, running around by themselves? I think the mexicans pulling the trigger are the source of Mexico's gun violence, just like the American drug addicts are the source of our drug problems, even if the drugs may have originated in Mexico.
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Tom Hancock
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Why does everyone always want to blame someone else for their problems? The fact that it has now projected onto our national leaders disturbs me.

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I don't think people are blaming others for their problems in this case. I think a couple of leaders from bordering nations had discussions that included problems that cross the border (drugs and guns) and some folks are trying to make political hay out of the fact that there's a recognition that problems on one side of the border can cross the border in one way or another.

It's making political hay, nothing more.
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hancock.tom wrote:
Why does everyone always want to blame someone else for their problems? The fact that it has now projected onto our national leaders disturbs me.


Perhaps because when you're looking to stop a man-made catastrophe, it helps to know exactly which forces are interacting and how. Mexico certainly doesn't hold the copyright on criminal behavior, and as this particular violence is extremely close to home it would be nice to have some understanding about what things, if any, the US can do to assist with its eradication. Stop producing guns and stop the demand for illegal narcotics? Sorry Mexico, you're on your own. We'll be happy to try and get your police even better guns though.
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Isaac Citrom
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perfalbion wrote:
isaacc wrote:
I think David raises many very valid points. Because the US is so naturally exploitive, the only way I see Mexico and her citizens being protected is to revamp the Mexico-US border. Today we have the technology to much better close an international boundary than ever before. Combining a physical barrier, with technology and with troops, the Mexico-US border can be effectively sealed up. It is the only just thing to do in order to protect Mexico from the US.


That's beneath you Isaac. It's got diddly shit to do with the US being exploitative, nor do any of the quotes say that this is the problem. It's got to do with two things - we've a demand for illegal drugs that the Mexican cartels fill. And we've gun laws that allow them to purchase weapons here and take them across the border.

The rest is crap. The cartels are shooting at each other because they're chasing profits that come from our side of the border. If we could eliminate US demand for drugs, they wouldn't have much to shoot at each other over. If we could keep the guns from crossing the border, they would have to find another source for guns, but it would probably be harder and cost them more.

Recognizing the reason things are happening isn't necessarily assigning blame. Taking statements from the administration and saying "oh, they're blaming the US for Mexico's problems" is silly. It's a problem on either side of the border (laws are being broken on both sides, right?).


Ken, perhaps I was too subtle. I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

Coincidentally, yesterday 1,000 Toronto police officers descended on dozens of homes and businesses in order to arrest gang members and confiscate weapons. Toronto never used to have a problem with gang violence until recently. Guess from where all the guns come. Similarly, Canada is a great source of drugs into the US as an avenue of distribution.

Joint law enforcement operations are a mainstay of Canada-US relations and what allows for the longest undefended border. That is to say, both governments take responsibility for civil order and co-operate in many ways.

So long as the US was having a problem, that is illegal aliens, Mexican leaders looked up North with who me puppy dog eyes. Indeed, there was plenty of rhetoric as to certain acquired rights of said illegal aliens. Now that Mexico has its own cross-border problems, again Mexican eyes look North except with hey you accusatory eyes.

Now, the porous border is a problem that American leaders recognize. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of it. It is unjust to use law enforcement on the American side to attack one problem but suddenly using that same law enforcement on the other is required.

Ken, by the way, what is your solution to the many guns infiltrating Mexico from the US? Is it to change US society and so long as the guns come in from China, for example, then it's no problem? Besides decriminalizing all drug use, what else should the US be doing to solve Mexico's problems? I'm assuming in that that you are not in favour of education programs such as "just say no to drugs" and also not in favour of criminally pursuing drug related offences. Where in the formula is Mexico responsible for its own civil order and where Mexicans are responsible for their own choices such as "just say no to working in the drug trade".
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Isaac Citrom
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Cranky;

Quote:
Stop producing guns and stop the demand for illegal narcotics?


What does that actually mean. Since other nations outclass the US by an order of magnitude, stopping to produce guns won't change a thing. Africa is swimming in $75 Chinese AK-47s not American M-16s.

How do you stop that demand for illegal narcotics. Educational programs? Isn't "just say no" a centrepiece of liberal comedy and mockery. Double and triple the criminalization of drug offences? What? If you decriminalize drugs altogether then there is no illegal trade to speak of. Then again, they'll be line-ups at every 7-11 for crack. How do you make people not want crack, cocaine and heroine?
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isaacc wrote:
So long as the US was having a problem, that is illegal aliens, Mexican leaders looked up North with who me puppy dog eyes. Indeed, there was plenty of rhetoric as to certain acquired rights of said illegal aliens. Now that Mexico has its own cross-border problems, again Mexican eyes look North except with hey you accusatory eyes.


I'll put it this way - I'm glad that Mexico's realized that a porous border can work against them just as much as it can work for them. Mexico's a country that's needed lots of political and economic reforms for a long, long time. Perhaps they'll get serious about them with this as a catalyst. That's a horribly, horribly cold way of looking at the problem, but it's reality, right? So long as the border netted positive things for Mexico (as in money coming back from the states), there wasn't a great deal of motivation.

Quote:
Now, the porous border is a problem that American leaders recognize. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of it. It is unjust to use law enforcement on the American side to attack one problem but suddenly using that same law enforcement on the other is required.


Sounded more like you were bashing Hilary than the Mexican government to me, but that's the vagaries of text for you. If I misread your intent, I apologize.

Quote:
Ken, by the way, what is your solution to the many guns infiltrating Mexico from the US?


I'd prefer to see fewer guns infiltrating the US for starters. I think in 2008 there were more gun deaths than deaths in car in the US, if I'm remembering the statistics right. I think our gun laws are too lax and make it too easy for me to go out and equip myself with sufficient firepower to wipe out a small town. That's one issue where I'm very definitely a granola-crunching lefty.

But that requires repealing or modifying the second amendment and I recognize that this just isn't going to happen.

I don't know that I'm otherwise qualified to comment. I'd like for us to find a way to reduce illegal drug use because it's unhealthy for us as a nation and it creates a massive income for criminal enterprises. So if we could address that, then we'd probably see multiple benefits. I'd like to see Mexico do more of their "fair share" of border enforcement, and maybe this will give them a motive to do so. But with NAFTA running around, it's really, really difficult to clamp down unless we're going to come up with a nearly comprehensive inspection regimen.

So I think the solution is to develop a real, working cross-border relationship. One where both sides are working on their problems and working to fix them. Better inspections of stuff destined for the US by the Mexican authorities, more serious enforcement of their drug laws, reduction in illegal immigration from their side (which also requires economic reforms and progress), etc. We can help with those things in some pretty tangible ways, but it's got to be a joint effort or its ultimately not going to work. Maybe tie renewal of NAFTA and similar agreements with Mexico to progress in those areas and stick to it while providing them logistical and monetary support to focus on the areas of concern.

They aren't easy issues, but international issues rarely are.
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isaacc wrote:
What does that actually mean. Since other nations outclass the US by an order of magnitude, stopping to produce guns won't change a thing. Africa is swimming in $75 Chinese AK-47s not American M-16s.


Not particularly relevant, is it? One can't expect the US to prevent someone from purchasing a Chinese good that doesn't pass through the US, can they? Cranky's point (and it's legitimate) is that many of the weapons put to use are purchased in the US legally (or at least, by a buyer that won't be prevented from doing so under US and state laws), then smuggled back across the border. Obviously, that's cheaper/easier than getting the weaponry from China for the cartels, or they wouldn't do it. Or they want higher quality weapons from the US.

So US gun laws definitely play into the situation. The purchases are technically legal, right up to the moment they're shipped to an illegal buyer in Mexico.
 
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Philipp Schuster
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Quote:
Now that Mexico has its own cross-border problems, again Mexican eyes look North except with hey you accusatory eyes.


Now, do they? Don't take letters and editorials in some newspapers too seriously here.

There are things like the Merida Initiative running to assist Mexico (and other central American countries too) in their fight against drug-related organized crime. I don't think that anyone in the US has a problem with helping Mexico fighting this war. I could even imagine the US sending National Guard troops to Mexican cities to help fight the cartels. Of course the Mexican government doesn't want that, as it would be like saying: "Hey people, obviously we are not able to guarantee for your security, and so we just invited the Gringos to help us out. So don't wonder if there will be American APC's patrolling your neighbourhood in the next few months."


Isaac has it right. What else could be done?

Legalizing drugs would solve the problem. I think that would be my choice. But it's not politically feasible in the forseeable future.

Completely sealing off the border would solve the problem too. Doing so costs a lot of money for fences, patrols etc. Even then it is not guaranteed that the cartels won't find a way around it. And the real costs come in an indirect way, as it would also shut down all of the legal trade between the two nations, which would really badly hurt the US economy and be an utter catastrophe for Mexico. So it's not an option either.

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isaacc wrote:

Cranky;

Quote:
Stop producing guns and stop the demand for illegal narcotics?


What does that actually mean.


It means exactly what I obviously meant it to mean: It's a non-starter that is never going to happen and understanding those forces that contribute to this man-made catastrophe helps absolutely nobody due to the impossibility of belling these particular cats. Isaac, I know that my context wasn't that difficult to follow, and I'm surprised at you. I was responding specifically to Tom's question regarding why people seek to blame. It's pretty damned obvious that if Mexicans are behaving badly the blame falls on Mexico. Having a US public official declare that certain forces in the USA are contributing to the violence in Mexico in no way diminishes Mexico's ultimate responsibility for the behavior of its citizenry. People just like to understand all the factors in any given problem. US demand for drugs coming out of Mexico is a no-brainer in terms of understanding certain competition amongst Mexican gangsters. Ready availability of nearby US guns is obviously not the only possible source of weaponry, but it's clearly an important one. Hillary Clinton bringing up these issues is about as surprising and unwarranted as China admitting that it has some part in the problems plaguing Tibet.
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Quote:
In fact, according to ATF’s National Tracing Center, 90 percent of the weapons that could be traced were determined to have originated from various sources within the U.S.


David... what Hillary said when she was begging forgiveness for America's crimes against Mexico was that 90% of the weapons that "fuel" the drug war come from the USA.

Your quote above doesn't say that. In fact, it gives a percentage of a quantity of weapons that is not only NOT defined, but that is actually of less use than if the ATF had just issued a press release stating that don't have a clue where the drug cartels are getting their weapons.

The assumption that America is at fault for wholesale slaughter in Mexico is ludicrous to the extreme. It totally ignores history, it releases Mexico from any sort of responsibilty for their own security and the safety of their citizens and it wrongly focuses the attention on America as the source of crime and slaughter as opposed to our neighbor to the South with a long history of drug corruption that goes right to the top of the food chain there.

Mexico doesn't want the drug lords stopped any more than they want America to effectively deal with illegal immigration. Mexico is a parasite on America's ass. They need drugs to flow here and they need illegals to flow here otherwise their teetering economy would finally collapse. Like Afghanistan and even Humboldt County north of you, drugs are the economy and to blame the consumer for the crimes committed in getting the product there is not indicitive of anything even approaching an intelligent and insightful perspective on how the world works.

In that world view people who love peanut butter could be arrested for being the source of contaminated Jiffy because of their lust for PJB sandwiches.
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DWTripp wrote:
The assumption that America is at fault for wholesale slaughter in Mexico is ludicrous to the extreme.


Please point to the exact quote where Ms. Clinton said this. Not a paraphrase, but a link to the transcript and the line.

You can't. Why? Because that's not what she said. What she said was:

1. There's a market for illegal drugs in the US.
2. The Mexican cartels are warring with each other and their own government to control exports of drugs to that market.
3. An overwhelming majority of the guns recovered in the Mexican drug war turn out to have been purchased in the US.

That's it. That's the extent of her commentary. There's no assignation of blame, there's no opprobrium, there's a set of statements of fact, which are then followed with ways in which both nations can help with the problem.

Quote:
Mexico doesn't want the drug lords stopped any more than they want America to effectively deal with illegal immigration. Mexico is a parasite on America's ass.


There's an enlightened world view. And folks wonder why other nations aren't so interested in working with us...

You're off your rocker here, Tripp. If you think Mexico doesn't want to knock out illegal activity that's a threat to their citizens, their police, and their leaders, you're completely batshit crazy.
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perfalbion wrote:
You're off your rocker here, Tripp. If you think Mexico doesn't want to knock out illegal activity that's a threat to their citizens, their police, and their leaders, you're completely batshit crazy.


You seriously think the politicians in Mexico city give a damn about the "hicks" on the boarder? If it wasn't frightening off maquiladoras they wouldn't do a thing.
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