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Subject: Blasting Galactica Into Scrap? rss

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Michael Vinarcik
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I've been giving it some thought and think that the Cylons should concentrate on damaging Galactica. Granted, my experience is only with small groups (2-3 players).

Here's my logic: Using the Human Fleet (or activating basestars, especially with 2 on the board) to damage Galactica looks promising to me:

1) Only 6 net damage required to win
2) Humans might go to Sickbay
3) Humans are tied up fixing the ship
4) Every action they spend fixing the ship is one they don't spend on something else (moving civvies, activating Vipers, etc.)

And crisis cards can do your raider "stuff" for you.

 
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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I've been wondering about that, too. The last two games of BSG I played, the Cylon never used Human Fleet and the humans won pretty easily both times. In the last game, it was my first time being a Cylon, and though I kept thinking "maybe I should use the Human Fleet location", I was always dissuaded by the odds... if I rolled less than 5, then it would seem like a wasted turn... well, I'd get to steal one card from someone... big deal...

But perhaps, regardless, it is worth choosing Human Fleet at least every other turn or so... because there's always the chance that your Crisis Card options from Caprica aren't going to really be that effective. You might as well go for it, because if you can damage something, especially if you can build up a few damages, then that could really hurt. Late in the game, damaging the FTL location could be the difference between winning or not.
 
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B C Z
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Damage the ship AND steal the blue cards from the only player getting blues.
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Skarsnik Larsen
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With two cylons that should cripple them quite heavily, but since they always have the option of drawing blues in the research lab its somewhat limited. yet still you halt their advance somewhat.
 
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Ken
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The strength of this strategy will depend on the humans in play. Not only would having several that draw blue cards on their own be a factor, but characters that draw heavily from yellow and green would be a problem. Combining executive orders with consolidate power will allow yellow/green combos to fix the ship pretty quickly. And the Cylons simply can't suck up sufficient repair cards to make it all that hard (and if they are, they're limiting their ability to spike checks since the repair cards are relatively common and low value).

You can certainly force the humans to burn actions, and that's a fine thing since that's really the primary resource at the human's disposal. But it's still going to take the right crisis cards coming up to help you out along the way. It's not a bad tactic, just one I think gets too much "press" as the way to win.
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Tom Thingamagummy
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Grudunza wrote:
I've been wondering about that, too. The last two games of BSG I played, the Cylon never used Human Fleet and the humans won pretty easily both times. In the last game, it was my first time being a Cylon, and though I kept thinking "maybe I should use the Human Fleet location", I was always dissuaded by the odds... if I rolled less than 5, then it would seem like a wasted turn... well, I'd get to steal one card from someone... big deal...

But perhaps, regardless, it is worth choosing Human Fleet at least every other turn or so... because there's always the chance that your Crisis Card options from Caprica aren't going to really be that effective. You might as well go for it, because if you can damage something, especially if you can build up a few damages, then that could really hurt. Late in the game, damaging the FTL location could be the difference between winning or not.


The nice thing is if you get the 4 or 5 blue/red when you steal.... those are great cards people horde and you can use against them later. The damage to Galactica is more of a bonus thing to me.

Damaging Galactica also hits the Food and Fuel marker once per game. That's another potential thing you're looking for. Also, if you hit the FTL, they can't jump early which may give you a little more time for the crisis cards to hurt them.
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1-
6 is alot of ways to go. I would be more inclined to do Human Fleet location if I was met partway to boot. Perhaps if there were already 2 or 3 damage.

2-
odds are still too low for me. Some factors could nudge things though....
--If the 2 resource damage tokens were already gone, it's a 50% chance to damage a location on Galactica
--If there are parts of Gal alr damaged, then there's a good chance players will be huddled around non-damaged locations. Plus, it's a better chance to hit non-damaged spots since the damaged locations are already out there.
--If players are not on Sickbay, Brig, Research Labs, nor Communications, as those are immune from damage.

3-
If I can sense there aren't alot of blue cards going around, then this is especially nice.

4-
Indeed. However, if the fleet is already in place, I'd rather make my own luck and activate the fleet on my own. Windows of opportunity like activating raiders to take out masses of civvies, Heavy raiders to advance centurians and/or heavy raiders, or if there are 2 basestars to attack twice. Granted, you don't get to look at a player's hand and steal his card, but you get 2 shots... and the basestar hits on 4-8 instead of just 5-8.


arkibet wrote:
The nice thing is if you get the 4 or 5 blue/red when you steal.... those are great cards people horde and you can use against them later. The damage to Galactica is more of a bonus thing to me.
Investigative Committee can be a great for the humans. Playing it for its ability can save alot of cards in skill checks. Playing it straight up adds 3 to 5 strength each, easily swaying the way skill checks go.
 
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Michael Vinarcik
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Well, I tried this...see my session report on Admiral Helo. Didn't work all that well, since it was so hard to damage Galactica. I knocked out a few things but it didn't really help all that much (and that was against Roslin and Adama).

I think if you can activate Basestars to do a few damage you'd have an easier time of this.
 
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Tom Thingamagummy
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ackmondual wrote:



arkibet wrote:
The nice thing is if you get the 4 or 5 blue/red when you steal.... those are great cards people horde and you can use against them later. The damage to Galactica is more of a bonus thing to me.
Investigative Committee can be a great for the humans. Playing it for its ability can save alot of cards in skill checks. Playing it straight up adds 3 to 5 strength each, easily swaying the way skill checks go.


True dat, but if they are low on Politics, stealing that and leaving the politics guy low on cards. Politics comes up a lot. And if it forces someone into the press room, it's something else they have to do.

But still, not the best strategy, but can be useful.
 
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Rob Neuhaus
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I saw this strategy completely and utterly fail in a slow jumping 4 player game against a human team that didn't have any blue draw. It was the easiest game that I'd ever won as a human, I think, there was never a real threat of losing. We would just exec order one person to consolidate power into engineering and move around and fix things when there was nothing else pressing.

Maybe it works better in a 5 or 6, or maybe it's just that a slow jump is incredibly hard to beat in a 4 player game.
 
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We've personally noticed that with two revealed cylons working together, this strategy can anialate the humans. But then again, there's not much that can stop the cyclons no matter strategy they choose (or even if they choose no strategy at all).
 
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Jayrome007 wrote:
We've personally noticed that with two revealed cylons working together, this strategy can anialate the humans. But then again, there's not much that can stop the cyclons no matter strategy they choose (or even if they choose no strategy at all).
As the humans get better at their thinking and become more familiar with the game's mechanics and cards, you'll see that while cylons are still a force to be reckoned with, there will be some games where they definately can NOT afford to get cocky or slip up in any way.
 
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Nick Short
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I've always felt the one card you steal is largely irrelevant. If you go to Caprica, you can usually initiate a skill check, which will typically pull more resources from the humans than pulling one card would do.
 
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Allan Cybulskie
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Jayrome007 wrote:
We've personally noticed that with two revealed cylons working together, this strategy can anialate the humans. But then again, there's not much that can stop the cyclons no matter strategy they choose (or even if they choose no strategy at all).


I think the key to this is that you have to have the time to do it, with the two revealed Cylons working together. Eventually, you can overwhelm the humans using this, because eventually you'll get the rolls to damage enough to win the game, especially if you can steal enough blue cards to make repair difficult. But so far what I've found in my admittedly limited play with Cylons is this: given enough time, the Cylons will always win. The main goal for the humans is to move quickly enough that they can survive.

For example, if you start doing this at distance 5 or 6, there may only be two jumps left in the game. If their population is at about 10, they can do two -3 jumps without worrying about losing the game. Unless you take out FTL, that can be basically within about 1.5 - 2 rounds ... which is, at most, 4 shots. Assuming you fail one or two, that's two hits and 4 stolen cards. That's not going to win you the game.

Again, while I'm inexperienced, the second PBF game seems to be fitting into what I see as the main balanced game; humans trying to rush things through and Cylons trying to delay them enough for Crises or their moves to drain one of their resources. Legendary Discovery has probably won the game for them by doing nothing more than SAVING THEM ONE JUMP.

If their resources are high, Human Fleet is probably better than Caprica, but if you have a couple of resources at the breaking point, or want to delay them (for example, by taking population down below 6 so that they can't do two -3 jumps if they lose both) Caprica is a better option.

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I've never saw a "Scraped Galactica" cylon victory... I don't think it is a solid tactic. In my opinion, it is more like a "sneaky-fast win tactic". With Galactica is at least a little bit damaged(1 or 2 damage), a Cylon reveals himself during a XO damaging galactica twice and then uses the human fleet, I can see the advantage. However, damaging is more a impairing/reducing effectiveness of human than a winning strategy.

Removing the engineering card from the humans doesn't seems that useful, since someone can always be XOed to Consolidate Power and then repair the galactica. However, it is fair tactic, specially with you tears Tyrol's hand, so he can't get the extra action.
 
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Calmen wrote:
I've never saw a "Scraped Galactica" cylon victory... I don't think it is a solid tactic. In my opinion, it is more like a "sneaky-fast win tactic". With Galactica is at least a little bit damaged(1 or 2 damage), a Cylon reveals himself during a XO damaging galactica twice and then uses the human fleet, I can see the advantage. However, damaging is more a impairing/reducing effectiveness of human than a winning strategy.
Don't you mean Cylon fleet? Of course, this is assuming you're not a sympathizer and that there are 2 basestars out. hit on 4 - 8, x2 is MUCH nicer of which otherwise 5 - 8 once shall have to suffice.
 
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ackmondual wrote:
Calmen wrote:
I've never saw a "Scraped Galactica" cylon victory... I don't think it is a solid tactic. In my opinion, it is more like a "sneaky-fast win tactic". With Galactica is at least a little bit damaged(1 or 2 damage), a Cylon reveals himself during a XO damaging galactica twice and then uses the human fleet, I can see the advantage. However, damaging is more a impairing/reducing effectiveness of human than a winning strategy.
Don't you mean Cylon fleet? Of course, this is assuming you're not a sympathizer and that there are 2 basestars out. hit on 4 - 8, x2 is MUCH nicer of which otherwise 5 - 8 once shall have to suffice.


Actually, I did mentioned Human Fleet. There is only 1/7 cylon attack cards, so most of the time the board is empty. Also, with the Human fleet you can steal repair cards, which can slow repairing speed.
 
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Thiago Martins
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I tried it last session and it was surprisingly effective, although I must admit the humans made a severe mistake by underestimating the thread posed by two basestars.

A few thoughts:

- A situation with two basestars in play isn't hard to come by, particularly if one cylon has the "massive attack" supercrisis.

- With two basestars in play, two revealed cylon players can expect to inflict 2.5 dammage tokens per turn. That is even worse if the cylons are seated together, as the presence of just three damage tokens give then almost 52% chance of winning the game per turn!

- Even more impressive, if they focus on it, two revealed cylon players are expected to hoard EVERY SINGLE REPAIR CARD IN THE GAME in less than four turns!

I don't think it's a silver bullet (as I said, the humans should have focused their firepower on the basestars as soon as our strategy became obvious, (and there's NOTHING subtle about that strategy), but it's a play that should be considered by every cylon player, particularly if the two cylons are seated next to each other.

 
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zearoth wrote:
I tried it last session and it was surprisingly effective, although I must admit the humans made a severe mistake by underestimating the thread posed by two basestars.

A few thoughts:

- A situation with two basestars in play isn't hard to come by, particularly if one cylon has the "massive attack" supercrisis.
In just the base game, getting Massive Assault is a 1/5 chance, followed by a 1/4 chance for the 2nd cylon. I wouldn't always count on those odds (although if you do, it's almost always a game changer). Just see if you do, and if you don't, see if enough CACs come out to put 2 basestars on (sometimes u do go through dryspells of them).

zearoth wrote:
- With two basestars in play, two revealed cylon players can expect to inflict 2.5 dammage tokens per turn. That is even worse if the cylons are seated together, as the presence of just three damage tokens give then almost 52% chance of winning the game per turn!
Which is especially why Cylon Fleet is better than Human Fleet when there are 2 basestars Better odds AND more shots.

zearoth wrote:
- Even more impressive, if they focus on it, two revealed cylon players are expected to hoard EVERY SINGLE REPAIR CARD IN THE GAME in less than four turns!
I dunno about this...
1) there are 14 Repair cards in the base game. Best case scenario, you'd need 7 turns between youselves to grab all of them. Even then, if humans also draw blue, a single Scientific Research means you're locked out of spiking skill checks. If humans use CP to draw blues, then they either get a Repair, which is what they need, or SR, which can be interrupted before a skill check.

2) Are you really gonna just hold on to a hand full of blue, and only use any non-blues you have (which you shouldn't since your approach is to draw only blues on your Receive Skill Cards step)?

zearoth wrote:
I don't think it's a silver bullet (as I said, the humans should have focused their firepower on the basestars as soon as our strategy became obvious, (and there's NOTHING subtle about that strategy), but it's a play that should be considered by every cylon player, particularly if the two cylons are seated next to each other.
If they had any nukes left... definitely use them. Humans have been in trouble where they were caught at the beginning of the jump prep track with many cylon ships, and having used up both nukes.
 
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ackmondual wrote:
In just the base game, getting Massive Assault is a 1/5 chance, followed by a 1/4 chance for the 2nd cylon. I wouldn't always count on those odds (although if you do, it's almost always a game changer). Just see if you do, and if you don't, see if enough CACs come out to put 2 basestars on (sometimes u do go through dryspells of them).
Oh, I agree, that's a quite situational victory path for the Cylons, yet one that the players should be aware of.
ackmondual wrote:
zearoth wrote:
- With two basestars in play, two revealed cylon players can expect to inflict 2.5 dammage tokens per turn. That is even worse if the cylons are seated together, as the presence of just three damage tokens give then almost 52% chance of winning the game per turn!
Which is especially why Cylon Fleet is better than Human Fleet when there are 2 basestars Better odds AND more shots.
Nice. Gotta try exodus sometime...
ackmondual wrote:
zearoth wrote:
- Even more impressive, if they focus on it, two revealed cylon players are expected to hoard EVERY SINGLE REPAIR CARD IN THE GAME in less than four turns!
I dunno about this...
1) there are 14 Repair cards in the base game. Best case scenario, you'd need 7 turns between youselves to grab all of them. Even then, if humans also draw blue, a single Scientific Research means you're locked out of spiking skill checks. If humans use CP to draw blues, then they either get a Repair, which is what they need, or SR, which can be interrupted before a skill check.
Hmmm, my math is a bit sketchy oh that one, but consider this scenario: The humans have between themselves at least two blue cards cards per turn (that's an optimistic hypothesis, but I'll be back on that). In this case, the cylons can always grab extra two blue cards cards by using the "human fleet location" (with the added bonus of being able to pick repair cards and firing a few shots at Galactica, forcing the humans to go for more blue cards). Added to the four cards they're able to normally draw, that's a total of six blue cards drawn per turn. Since the blue deck has only 21 cards, the cylons can expect to cycle through the whole deck in less than 4 turns. Of course, there's a few problems with that, for instance the humans may try to avoid keep unused repair cards in their hands, but my guess is that the four turn figure isn't unrealistic. Of course four turns is a lot, so this strategy seems to work better for early revealed cylons.
ackmondual wrote:

2) Are you really gonna just hold on to a hand full of blue, and only use any non-blues you have (which you shouldn't since your approach is to draw only blues on your Receive Skill Cards step)?

That's exactly what we did, and yeah, we had no power whatsoever to influence skill checks. But then again, it didn't matter. Our focus was to inflict raw damage to the Galactica.
ackmondual wrote:
zearoth wrote:
I don't think it's a silver bullet (as I said, the humans should have focused their firepower on the basestars as soon as our strategy became obvious, (and there's NOTHING subtle about that strategy), but it's a play that should be considered by every cylon player, particularly if the two cylons are seated next to each other.
If they had any nukes left... definitely use them. Humans have been in trouble where they were caught at the beginning of the jump prep track with many cylon ships, and having used up both nukes.
Indeed, and it may be a strong argument for saving at least one nuke for when the cylons reveal themselves, but I'd say that even the "weapons control" combined with a few XO's may be an effective answer to this tactic... unless it happens to be blasted, of course
 
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hmmmm.... just in case there was no misunderstanding, allow me to elaborate...

Long story short, I'm not sure how each cylon player is getting 4 blue cards per turn AND damaging Gal. at the same time.

zearoth wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
In just the base game, getting Massive Assault is a 1/5 chance, followed by a 1/4 chance for the 2nd cylon. I wouldn't always count on those odds (although if you do, it's almost always a game changer). Just see if you do, and if you don't, see if enough CACs come out to put 2 basestars on (sometimes u do go through dryspells of them).
Oh, I agree, that's a quite situational victory path for the Cylons, yet one that the players should be aware of.


Check out Basestar Bridge (BB) from Exodus' CFB (Cylon Fleet Board). Massive Assault was pretty much the worst features of that super crisis card all rolled into one, without the luck element (after the fact of whether or not you drew that super crisis card).

zearoth wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
zearoth wrote:
- With two basestars in play, two revealed cylon players can expect to inflict 2.5 dammage tokens per turn. That is even worse if the cylons are seated together, as the presence of just three damage tokens give then almost 52% chance of winning the game per turn!
Which is especially why Cylon Fleet is better than Human Fleet when there are 2 basestars Better odds AND more shots.
Nice. Gotta try exodus sometime...


Oh... OK... just to be clear, when I said Cylon Fleet, I meant the Cylon Fleet location in the base game (ie the four locations printed on the board being Caprica, Cylon Fleet, Human Fleet, and Ressurection Ship). In fact, this snippet had no reference to the CFB (Cylon Fleet Board) from Exodus whatsoever.* Which leads to me next clarification...

* AFAIK, there's usually no confusion between the 2 since when someone refers to the Cylon Fleet Board module/option, or that single physical board itself, it usually gets abbreviated as "CFB" which doesn't get confused with the location from the base game.

zearoth wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
zearoth wrote:
- Even more impressive, if they focus on it, two revealed cylon players are expected to hoard EVERY SINGLE REPAIR CARD IN THE GAME in less than four turns!
I dunno about this...
1) there are 14 Repair cards in the base game. Best case scenario, you'd need 7 turns between youselves to grab all of them. Even then, if humans also draw blue, a single Scientific Research means you're locked out of spiking skill checks. If humans use CP to draw blues, then they either get a Repair, which is what they need, or SR, which can be interrupted before a skill check.
Hmmm, my math is a bit sketchy oh that one, but consider this scenario: The humans have between themselves at least two blue cards cards per turn (that's an optimistic hypothesis, but I'll be back on that). In this case, the cylons can always grab extra two blue cards cards by using the "human fleet location" (with the added bonus of being able to pick repair cards and firing a few shots at Galactica, forcing the humans to go for more blue cards). Added to the four cards they're able to normally draw, that's a total of six blue cards drawn per turn. Since the blue deck has only 21 cards, the cylons can expect to cycle through the whole deck in less than 4 turns. Of course, there's a few problems with that, for instance the humans may try to avoid keep unused repair cards in their hands, but my guess is that the four turn figure isn't unrealistic. Of course four turns is a lot, so this strategy seems to work better for early revealed cylons.

[/q]

If you're playing withOUT Pegasus exp (nor Exodus) and have 2 undamaged basestars on the board....

1) Cylon Fleet (the location from base game) lets each basestar fire twice, a roll of 4 - 8 each hits

You drew 2 blue from the start of your turn

Total 4 hits against Galactica, 4 blue cards total

2) Human Fleet, you look at a player's hand, and steal 1 repair card (assuming they have it, but I don't think that's a bad assumption to start off with)
Then you roll to damage Galactica once. 5 - 8 to hit.

You drew 2 blue from the start of your turn

Total 2 hits against Galactica, 4 to 6 blue cards total in hand

...
If you go with #1, it's a surefire way to cut Gal. down to size, but 4 blue cards per turn seems quick enough, but it seems like humans will lose to Gal. destroyed before you can capture enough blue cards anyways. The Bottleneck is the actions they have to repair, let alone having enough repairs. All they need is 1 per turn, of which again, I believe humans will be dead shortly anyways.

If you go with #2, getting 2 shots at Gal. per round of turns is too slow, (and 5-8 odds at that for each damage). Granted, you do get alot of info by getting look at a player's hand, if you know if they have more repairs, you can continue to use Human Fleet to get the rest of them. However, you don't have enough "speed" and "mass" on both fronts... you're stealing any Repair cards as well, but 1 hit on Gal. per cylon is just too slow.

If you're playing WITH Pegasus exp (but NOT Exodus) and have 2 undamaged basestars on the board....

Human Fleet just lets you draw 2 skill cards of different types, then scout the crisis deck or the destination deck. There is NO option to damage Galactica this way. Furthermore, in Pegasus, your draws at the beginning of your turn must be different, so at best, you're getting 2 blue per turn per cylon. Then there's the change that 14 out of 26 cards are Repairs, although in theory, that part alone should be irrelevant.

Long story short, I'm not sure how each cylon player is getting 4 blue cards per turn AND damaging Gal. at the same time.
 
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ackmondual wrote:
Long story short, I'm not sure how each cylon player is getting 4 blue cards per turn AND damaging Gal. at the same time.
Oh, they're not. They are getting 3 blue cards per turn each, 6 total, so 21/6=3.5. But that is of course without activating the basestars.
I agree that in the presence of basestars, the Cylon Fleet location is a better option than the human fleet. Not only two hits (if there are two basestars) are much better than one, the odd of scoring a hit by activating a basestar is of 62,5%, compared to the 50% of Human fleet. The extra firepower more than makes up for the smaller number of blue cards. In the presence of a single basestar, though, the human fleet seems to be the better option.
 
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