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Subject: I really, really like Tigris & Euphrates and Ra. rss

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Knock knock open up the door it's Riel
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I'll try to explain why, and then you can tell me about other, similar games.

The reason I'm in love with Ra and Tigris & Euphrates is this: In both games the players take relatively short turns, and perform minor actions for an immediate reward or short term goal. Yet these minor actions have enormous consequences that shape the entire game. The way the game unfolds is the result of all these tiny decisions, but no single player has much control. To beginners this may seem random and chaotic, but experienced players know how to read the flow of the game, and also how to use their actions to steer it.

In T&E you might place a market because it gives you that green point you need. But by doing that, you're also increasing the strength of a kingdom, shortening the distance to neighboring kingdoms, and changing monument building options. The other players will react by building towards that kingdom or away from it, choosing a different tile to play, &c. The impact of that market you placed is far greater that just one green point.

In Ra you might bid your 13 because that flood tile will give you a lot of points. But now you're down a sun, collections with flood tiles will be a lot more valuable to your opponents than to you, and the player with the 12 now has the highest sun. The difference between bidding that 13 sun and not bidding is a lot more than just the points you get from it.

Another Knizia game that I like and that almost has this quality is Stephenson's Rocket. But there players are much more actively steering the game in order to gain points. In Reef Encounter a player might lock a coral tile to increase their score, thereby changing the rules and direction of the game. And I'm not much of a Go player, but I imagine it might be somewhat similar too.

So, any other games like this out there?
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Corey Allen
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You may want to try Kingdoms You are laying down tiles in this game that shape where you want to place your "bidding" tokens. Each placement changes the shape of the board and what to do.

Also, Modern Art has these same characteristics. You play a painting and depending on what other players play is how much the painting is worth and how much to bid on it.
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Gabe Alvaro
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Off the top of my head, I would put Age of Steam into this category. All of the actions are small, but accumulate over the course of the game to have a huge impact and shape the entire game. But then that seems to happen with a lot of games I can think of.
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Knock knock open up the door it's Riel
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blindspot wrote:
Off the top of my head, I would put Age of Steam into this category. All of the actions are small, but accumulate over the course of the game to have a huge impact and shape the entire game. But then that seems to happen with a lot of games I can think of.


Thanks!

Yes, I guess there are a lot of games with small actions - big consequences. More specifically, I'm looking for games where the small actions come with a direct reward. So the reason for performing an action might be simple and purely tactical, and the bigger consequences are probably not immediately obvious.
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amishburrito wrote:
You may want to try Kingdoms You are laying down tiles in this game that shape where you want to place your "bidding" tokens. Each placement changes the shape of the board and what to do.

Also, Modern Art has these same characteristics. You play a painting and depending on what other players play is how much the painting is worth and how much to bid on it.

Kingdoms could very well be what I'm looking for; thanks! I've played Modern Art, and like it a lot. Making long term plans is easier in Modern Art, but it does have the same feeling where you really need to think about position more than just points. Like letting someone else win a painting, even though it would make you money.
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It might not be exactly what you're looking for, but your description really made me think of Hermagor. At the beginning of each round, you buy tiles to sell them later, and some of the tiles allow you to increase the price of the item. You might be the only person who has eggs in a round, for instance, so you'd probably increase the price to get more money for yourself in the short term. But the price grid is also associated with the points that players will earn at the end of the game for enclosing certain areas.. and in turn, that makes some areas more desirable to enclose than others and might change how people bid on tiles and make decisions about where they move on the board.
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Neil
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I third Modern Art. Great game!

You might also want to look into Container. Every micro decision counts in that game, which makes it very fragile but also extremely interesting.
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Knock knock open up the door it's Riel
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Hermagor looks really interesting too, thanks! Another game for my wishlist

I'm reading about Container now...
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I to am a great lover of Tigris and RA. A lot of good suggestions already but I'd also look into...

Tikal - has four scoring rounds and every small decision effects your chances as you position for the next score, also if you don't bid correctly for choosing the tiles you need and the turn order you want you could get out manuvered
Caylus - is more linear and you can see something coming and where things are headed but all of the small decisions can have an immediate benefit that sets you up for something larger toward the end
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Bill Eldard
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I recommend these other Knizia titles . . .

Taj Mahal (my favorite game)

Medici

Amun-Re

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Cuba - You might get a free resource from the market, and that is the immediate benefit, but the longer-term impact would be that only you have that item to pay in tax, or you can convert it to something that will get you points from shipping it. If you took the free resource, the other players might have to buy it at a high price, or place their worker differently on the board, or otherwise alter their plan.

If you use the mayor to get pesos, you get the immediate benefit of the pesos, but that might mean you could buy something from market, to ship or manufacture into something else, or it might mean that you could impact the election to your benefit, affecting everyone's strategies.

I see a lot of this small-immediate-benefit then larger-game-affecting benefit in Cuba. I could make a similar argument about Agricola - in your turn, you take a bit of wheat or plow a field, but if you take the sheep at a crucial time and someone else was counting on them for food for the harvest, their strategy could be changed drastically.

For a different sort of game, I'll say Doubles Wild - the beginning is a bunch of small actions that seem random and chaotic, but where you place a marble on doubles, or how you lock in points or block an opponent, affects the game, as you can't move marbles once placed.
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Ibaimendi wrote:
It might not be exactly what you're looking for, but your description really made me think of Hermagor. At the beginning of each round, you buy tiles to sell them later, and some of the tiles allow you to increase the price of the item. You might be the only person who has eggs in a round, for instance, so you'd probably increase the price to get more money for yourself in the short term. But the price grid is also associated with the points that players will earn at the end of the game for enclosing certain areas.. and in turn, that makes some areas more desirable to enclose than others and might change how people bid on tiles and make decisions about where they move on the board.


Hermagor is on my wishlist. Always interested in more info/perspectives on it, thanks
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Chris Ferejohn
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Le Havre seems like it might be a good fit. Lots of small decisions that all change the makeup of the game in subtle ways.
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Miguel
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The games you want are El Grande and Taj Mahal
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Stephen Tudor
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All very good games recommended in this thread. Good luck. I enjoyed reading your observations of what you enjoyed most about Ra and T&E.

I'd recommend Agricola as the obvious choice, Goa as the well-regarded step-uncle, and Notre Dame as the half-cousin nobody talks about anymore. In all three, there are immediate rewards for what you do in your turns, but the long-term consequences of such are often realized much later.

Like others have implied, most good games share this very trait.
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Tony Chen
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Modern Art, Tower of Babel, Arkadia. And if you want to count Go, then consider Through the Desert also.
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Patrick Runyan
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I wish you lived near me.
I own this game but have yet to find anyone to play it with me.
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purplewurple wrote:
amishburrito wrote:
You may want to try Kingdoms You are laying down tiles in this game that shape where you want to place your "bidding" tokens. Each placement changes the shape of the board and what to do.

Also, Modern Art has these same characteristics. You play a painting and depending on what other players play is how much the painting is worth and how much to bid on it.

Kingdoms could very well be what I'm looking for; thanks! I've played Modern Art, and like it a lot. Making long term plans is easier in Modern Art, but it does have the same feeling where you really need to think about position more than just points. Like letting someone else win a painting, even though it would make you money.


If you're looking into Kingdoms, check out Beowulf: The Movie Board Game as well, which is based on Kingdoms but adds a lot of complexity - different tile distributions, more variation and complexity in the "battlegrounds," and many more special powers. Both great games, I personally prefer Beowulf: The Movie Board Game. (Be careful not to mix it up w/Beowulf: The Legend, which is also by Knizia, I haven't tried that one so can't comment on it)
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