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Subject: Muslim chaplain at Harvard acknowledges wisdom of killing apostates. rss

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Link.

But don't worry! He totally disapproves unless the capital punishment is carried out by a Muslim government.
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Andrew Watson
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Great stuff, especially:

Quote:
I would finally note that there is great wisdom (hikma) associated with the established and preserved position (capital punishment) and so, even if it makes some uncomfortable in the face of the hegemonic modern human rights discourse, one should not dismiss it out of hand.


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True Blue Jon
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Not seeing controversy here. Hasn't every government throughout history espoused capital punishment for traitors?
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Deconversion is not usually put on the same level as deliberately selling state secrets to an enemy power.

Claiming that deconversion alone is ipso facto proof of treason is a codification of thoughtcrime.
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True Blue Jon
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dysjunct wrote:
Deconversion is not usually put on the same level as deliberately selling state secrets to an enemy power.

Claiming that deconversion alone is ipso facto proof of treason is a codification of thoughtcrime.


In a religious government, it's pretty close, which is why I'm glad we don't have one here in the USA. And "selling state secrets" can get pretty close to thoughtcrime too.
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quozl wrote:
In a religious government, it's pretty close, which is why I'm glad we don't have one here in the USA. And "selling state secrets" can get pretty close to thoughtcrime too.


I'm really not sure what tack you're taking here. I guess the difference is that with a modern understanding of human rights, governments executing people for a private decision of conscience is considered monstrous. And arguing that this is okay is considered almost as monstrous.

If you think there is really no difference between modern liberal democracies and medieval theocracies, then that is something you have in common with the Harvard chaplain and his disdain for "hegemonic modern human rights discourse." Fight the hegemony!

(And the phrase "hegemonic modern human rights discourse" is yet another reason to hate deconstructionist trends: they give aid and comfort to barbarous pseudo-intellectual thugs.)

But, you're "glad we don't have one here in the USA," so maybe you do think there is a difference.

I think there is a distinct difference between someone deciding they want to pray differently, versus someone selling detailed plans of nuclear weapons to Iran. Calling the latter "close to thoughtcrime" as if it compares to the former is just wacky.
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True Blue Jon
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dysjunct wrote:
I think there is a distinct difference between someone deciding they want to pray differently, versus someone selling detailed plans of nuclear weapons to Iran. Calling the latter "close to thoughtcrime" as if it compares to the former is just wacky.


People have been executed by the U.S. government for a lot less than selling detailed plans of nuclear weapons.

I'm just saying we're not much better.
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CHAPEL
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dysjunct wrote:
thoughtcrime.


Thought crimes in a theocracy is probably considered a valid crime. Thank God we don't have one of those.
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Isaac Citrom
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Our local useful ones are just yanking your chain and/or demonstrating their usual highly moveable moral centres.

Whether it is Judaism, Christianity or whatnot, leaving the religion is entirely allowed. Moreover, treason is not at all the same act, otherwise Noam Chomsky would have been executed multiple times now. Treason is a proactive act that does harm to your group. Just saying, "I'm not in with you guys," is by noy stretch the same thing.

And, that's the crux of the matter. In Islam, just not agreeing is equated with treason. You are not allowed to not believe.

In any case, even the Judeo-Christian religions executed people for religious crimes, yes, hundreds and thousands of years ago as the case may be.

So, fine then, let us just agree that modern Islam is still stuck in the 10th century or thereabouts. That's the main point.

A friend of mine made quite an astute observation with which I whole-heartedly agree. He speaks of social maturity. Both Christianity and Judaism grew out of their adolescent versions wherein people were executed for such things as blasphemy. Islam being about 800 years younger even than Christianity has still not reached that point of social maturity.

But, of course, the main impetus here is that they're good regardless, and we're bad regardless. Par for the course. Don't bring up women's rights because then we'll hear about how the treatment of women in Islam is beyond reproach.
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True Blue Jon
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isaacc wrote:
But, of course, the main impetus here is that they're good regardless, and we're bad regardless.


I'll use small words so you can understand:

WE ARE ALL BAD.
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MWChapel wrote:
dysjunct wrote:
thoughtcrime.


Thought crimes in a theocracy is probably considered a valid crime. Thank God we don't have one of those.

So that means we SHOULDN'T string up DW Tripp for not going along with Global Warming???????

I'm so confused..I brought my best lynching rope and EVERYTHING.

Darilian
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Darilian wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
dysjunct wrote:
thoughtcrime.


Thought crimes in a theocracy is probably considered a valid crime. Thank God we don't have one of those.

So that means we SHOULDN'T string up DW Tripp for not going along with Global Warming???????

I'm so confused..I brought my best lynching rope and EVERYTHING.

Darilian


We would be so fucking bored without him. He gets a pass.
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Isaac Citrom
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quozl wrote:
isaacc wrote:
But, of course, the main impetus here is that they're good regardless, and we're bad regardless.


I'll use small words so you can understand:

WE ARE ALL BAD.


Well, I didn't want to overstate. Even I didn't think you meant we are completely bad, just mostly bad.

I know, I know. You meant we all are bad.
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True Blue Jon
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isaacc wrote:
quozl wrote:
isaacc wrote:
But, of course, the main impetus here is that they're good regardless, and we're bad regardless.


I'll use small words so you can understand:

WE ARE ALL BAD.


Well, I didn't want to overstate. Even I didn't think you meant we are completely bad, just mostly bad.

I know, I know. You meant we all are bad.
.


Thanks Isaac! I guess I have to get those small words in the right order too!
 
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Lawson
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Starting from the point of view (espoused by whomever) that capital punishment for apostates (of any religion, or worldview, or, well, anything) is valid . . .

We have, here, reason #738,955,271 why I am not a relativist.

That's just purely f***ed up.
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Clay
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Honestly, my favorite part is where he says that any debates about religion are impermissible. Seems oddly familiar...
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lotus dweller
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I have waded through shit (and a misunderstanding) over people typifying all Muslims as authoritarian, narrow-minded, medieval killers.

And then this Harvard graduate goes and does more harm to Muslims living in Western societies in 15 minutes than a whole year of terror-stricken red-necks on a message board.

Lots of other Muslim punishments are widely held to be applicable only if their is a Caliphate. That this guy is happy with a "Muslim government" executing for this "crime" worries me.

Wahhabist influenced? Wonderful when people see themselves as having control over others internal world isn't it.
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Isaac Citrom
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Pinook wrote:
I have waded through shit (and a misunderstanding) over people typifying all Muslims as authoritarian, narrow-minded, medieval killers.

And then this Harvard graduate goes and does more harm to Muslims living in Western societies in 15 minutes than a whole year of terror-stricken red-necks on a message board.

Lots of other Muslim punishments are widely held to be applicable only if their is a Caliphate. That this guy is happy with a "Muslim government" executing for this "crime" worries me.

Wahhabist influenced? Wonderful when people see themselves as having control over others internal world isn't it.


Pinook;

It's perhaps because you are forcing yourself to impose fairness and an image that doesn't exist. He's mindset is what is the truth of 90% of the Muslim world. That is because 90% of the Muslim world exists outside of Western society in places like Indonesia and Saudi Arabia.

This guy is an exception in my experience in that all Western educated Muslims are not like him. Any contact I have had with Muslims who have grown up "here", which I call "Westernized" Muslims are exactly like us. They share the same fundamental Western values except they follow a different religion. Where a Jew attends Saturday morning services, or a Christian attends Sunday mass, they attend Friday services. Most importantly, they share with us what makes Western society work, a live and let live respect for differences.
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In other news, Obama goes to Turkey. Nothing like hearing the call to prayer while sitting on the beach, drinking a beer and watching some topless swimmers. Ahhhh!
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AKA Halston Thrombeaux
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I wish more Muslims and non-Muslims would recognize that when the Qur'an does talk about apostates and unbelievers as such, it is exclusively discussing people who are actively working to destroy Islam, as in the Quraysh tribe of pagan Muslims who were engaged in all out warfare to crush the fledgling Muslim religion while those messages were being delievered.

Quozl was actually pretty much on the money: to leave the Muslim fold to join this particular band of unbelievers was high treason in every legitimate sense of the word - while executing them is not prescribed, Muslims would certainly be expected to come up against and kill these unbelievers on the field of combat if they are actively working to destroy Islam

I would refer you to the only two times that "apostates" are mentioned in the Qur'an - 03:100 and 47:25
03:100 - O ye who believe! If ye listen to a faction among the People of the Book, they would (indeed) render you apostates after ye have believed!

This is discussing a faction of Christians and Jews (People of the Book) who were actively supporting the efforts of the Quraysh to destroy Islam, not conversion to either of these religions generally

47:25 - Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,- the Evil One has instigated them and buoyed them up with false hopes.

Taken alone this would certainly seem to indicate general opprobrium for apostasy, but the ayat immediately preceding it are specifically discussing calls to fight in defense of Islam, once again from the offensives of pagan Arabs determined to wipe Islam off the face of the earth

Isaacc wrote:
A friend of mine made quite an astute observation with which I whole-heartedly agree. He speaks of social maturity. Both Christianity and Judaism grew out of their adolescent versions wherein people were executed for such things as blasphemy. Islam being about 800 years younger even than Christianity has still not reached that point of social maturity.
--------------------
This guy is an exception in my experience in that all Western educated Muslims are not like him. Any contact I have had with Muslims who have grown up "here", which I call "Westernized" Muslims are exactly like us. They share the same fundamental Western values except they follow a different religion. Where a Jew attends Saturday morning services, or a Christian attends Sunday mass, they attend Friday services. Most importantly, they share with us what makes Western society work, a live and let live respect for differences.


These are both 100% on the ball

Isaacc wrote:
That is because 90% of the Muslim world exists outside of Western society in places like Indonesia and Saudi Arabia.


This is not - Indonesia is actually home to some of the world's most tolerant and open-minded Muslims, as their brand of Islam was carried there by traders who saw little profit in fostering hatred. Saudi Arabia..... is not.

Stupid Saudi Wahabbi shit is definitely more prominent in the Muslim world than Westerners like us would hope, but Wahibbi bullshit is followed by significantly less than 90% of Muslims worldwide. To mention Indonesia in the same sentence as Saudi Arabia when discussing the views of the Muslim world is fundamentally erroneous

I'm sure someone will mention some crazy shit that an Indonesian authority pronounced, as if that invalidates the views of ordinary people in the world's most populous Muslim country
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isaacc wrote:

It's perhaps because you are forcing yourself to impose fairness and an image that doesn't exist. He's mindset is what is the truth of 90% of the Muslim world.

You got a source for this 90% figure Isaac?
I doubt it.(edit: explicitly "I doubt the figure")
A shot in the dark from me says that hmm, maybe 25% of non-Western Muslims would see "wisdom" in executing for this "crime".
I base this on the rough "high tide" percentage of the vote that fundamentalist parties got in countries such as Indonesia(?10%) and Malaysia, Iurkey (10%), Pakistan (12%) Egypt (20%).
These countries contain roughly half of the world's Muslims. To get to 90% from here the other countries are going have to be well over 100% fundamentalist.

What is your 90% figure based on?
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Pinook wrote:
isaacc wrote:

It's perhaps because you are forcing yourself to impose fairness and an image that doesn't exist. He's mindset is what is the truth of 90% of the Muslim world.

You got a source for this 90% figure Isaac?
I doubt them.
A shot in the dark from me says that hmm, maybe 25% of non-Western Muslims would see "wisdom" in executing for this "crime".
I base this on the rough "high tide" percentage of the vote that fundamentalist parties got in countries such as Indonesia(?10%) and Malaysia, Iurkey (10%), Pakistan (12%) Egypt (20%).
These countries contain roughly half of the world's Muslims. To get to 90% from here the other countries are going have to be well over 100% fundamentalist.

What is your 90% figure based on?


Nothing. I just pulled it out of thin air. Just a guesstimate really based on attitudes I see via the media and the Internet. If you say not 90%, that's fine by me. I wouldn't buy into 25%, though, not in countries like Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia. For example, just the number of honour crimes in places like Israel and Jordan has an impression on me, especially how the average sentence in Jordan is 6 months in jail. I'm just not buying into any sales pitch about Islam and progressivity. But, if you want to question 90%, yeah sure, I just threw a dart based on intuition.
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isaacc wrote:
I'm just not buying into any sales pitch about Islam and progressivity.

I'm not trying to sell you Islam.
There are areas of Islam where Vlad the impaler would feel quite at home in terms of treatment of humans.

What I am saying is that "Islam" is far bigger and broader than you and most realise.

I've got no problem with killers who behead rape victims or slaughter innocents being denigrated/relieved of the burdens of life. But its best to keep your bullets on target by specifying who it is that has their heads full of murderous shit. And it ain't "Muslims". "Violent muslims", "radical fundamentalist muslims", Wahhabist muslims - no worries. But tarring all Muslims with the same "execute apostates" brush is plain wrong as far as I can see.

I agree that in some places its going to be higher. Our good allies Saudi Arabia use anti- Western/anti-USA fervour to distract the citizens from the police state they live in. So a lot of time and money goes into making things like "execute apostates" the socially necessary thing to support. How much support it would have if people had "free choice" I don't know.

As I said even in Pakistan the Fundamentalist Muslim vote never got out of the teens (as far as I can see).


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toku42 wrote:
I wish more Muslims and non-Muslims would recognize that when the Qur'an does talk about apostates and unbelievers as such, it is exclusively discussing people who are actively working to destroy Islam, as in the Quraysh tribe of pagan Muslims who were engaged in all out warfare to crush the fledgling Muslim religion while those messages were being delievered.


If you're correct on the Quranic meaning of "apostates," then I completely agree with your first point: More Muslims need to realize this.

As a non-Muslim, I am perfectly willing to concede that Muslims are much better than me at interpreting the meaning of their holy book. That so many of them seem to agree that "apostate" is ANYONE who deconverts, and not just people who deconvert and then work to destroy Islam (whatever that means), is a source of concern for me and many others. I will support them if they want to get their own house in order and grow up as a culture. But I can't do it for them.
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toku42 wrote:
Indonesia is actually home to some of the world's most tolerant and open-minded Muslims, as their brand of Islam was carried there by traders who saw little profit in fostering hatred.

As if on cue, one of the headlines for the latest issue of The Economist is "Indonesia, a model for Muslims."
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And apropos to the original topic, and really scary and frustrating.
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