Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
24 Posts

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Cheney death squads? (Poll) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Have faith
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Investigative reporter Seymour Hersh has alleged the following about VP Cheney:

"[There is a] Joint Special Operations Command -- JSOC it’s called. It is a special wing of our special operations community that is set up independently. They do not report to anybody, except in the Bush-Cheney days, they reported directly to the Cheney office. Congress has no oversight of it. It’s an executive assassination ring essentially, and it’s been going on and on and on.... Under President Bush’s authority, they’ve been going into countries, not talking to the ambassador or the CIA station chief, and finding people on a list and executing them and leaving. That’s been going on, in the name of all of us."

http://www.minnpost.com/ericblackblog/2009/03/11/7310/invest...
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0903/30/sitroom.01.ht...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1024953...


What is your initial impression about these allegations?
Poll
Probably true
Probably not true
      79 answers
Poll created by cull


What do you think will be the result of this story?
Poll
Cheney will go to prison.
The Bush/Cheney legacy will be tarnished in some people's minds, but nothing else will come of it.
There will be public hearings and investigations, but nothing will come of it in the end.
This story will just fade away.
      77 answers
Poll created by cull







 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I both love and hate when these stories get reported on. JSOC's been around since something like 1980 to encourage the different armed forces to cooperate in developing special operations capabilities and make sure they can work together effectively, if I'm remembering the mission correctly.

Then we move into the part that nobody will ever be able to "know" because the details of the group's actual missions have to be so highly classified that the public isn't going to have access - that this was somehow a "death squad" that was under control of the VP. I doubt this a great deal. The VP is invested with zero powers of command and isn't even in the chain of command for the military. So any orders the VP gave would need some form of Presidential approval to be valid, and I doubt that any officer would allow for "Just do what the VP says." Were a court martial or other form of trial to be convened, that's unlikely to be recognized as a valid authority. Unless you suspect that the President could delegate command of the entire military to the Secretary of Agriculture, this doesn't make any sense.

I'm no supporter of President Bush by any stretch of anyone's wildest imagination. But this is so far beyond the pale it's really silly. I'm sure there are parts that are true (for example, it wouldn't surprise me to hear they were authorized to take out bin Laden were he located). But we love a good conspiracy in general, and this smacks of one of those. Lots of hype, little history.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Have faith
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I just listened to the NPR interview again, which is where I heard about this. (The Cheney part starts about 21 minutes in.)

The reporter claims that this program reported directly to Cheney who was authorizing assassinations without the knowledge and approval of Congress, which is illegal. "There has never been a government this secret," he said.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh, I don't know that Mr. Cheney wouldn't have wanted or used such authority. I don't think the officers involved would have been willing to see him have it.

But we need more than a few reporters' speculations. And if it did happen, I suspect we'll learn about it in time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Boise
Idaho
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Koldfoot wrote:
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about Islamic death squads who answer to a single leader who is not under the oversight of any legislature?


Hopefully Cheney's death squads got to some of their death squads before any extra school busses loaded with innocent children were blown up.

I think our death squads are far superior. Not to mention, we have cool equipment like night vision and stuff.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Koldfoot wrote:
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about Islamic death squads who answer to a single leader who is not under the oversight of any legislature?


Personally, about the same way as people implying that finding them distasteful in a democracy is indicative of support for them in another context.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Seymour Hersh has done some great reporting in the past but he's well known to be completely out of touch with reality in most of what he writes these days. I can't believe that 44% of people who bothered to vote in this poll thought this report was literally true, I hope some of them are joking because otherwise it's rather sad.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom anonymous
United Kingdom
Birmingham
flag msg tools
mb
but the poll doesn't ask if it's literally true, but whether you think it's probably true.. and it'd surprise me if the US didn't have black op's death squads, but I didn't do any research to find out what jsoc is/does or who the reporter is, because I don't care enough to spend the time, but I still voted that it is probably true.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
renegade garou wrote:
but the poll doesn't ask if it's literally true, but whether you think it's probably true.


True doesn't mean literally true? It could be just a metaphor?

I guess that would explain the votes. I don't understand voting "probably true" if you think it's probably not literally true, though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
フィル
Australia
Ashfield
NSW
flag msg tools
designer
badge
I've got an 808 and a 303 and a record collection like the ABC
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You could consider 'probably true' to mean 'having a likelihood greater than 50%'.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom anonymous
United Kingdom
Birmingham
flag msg tools
mb
in the context of journalism, the story could still be true, even if some details are wrong.. the main point of the story is (a) that the US has secret death sqauds operating and that (b) they were under the command of cheney.. there are also little things mentioned like death lists.. now if it turned out the us did/does have operating secret death squads, and that cheney decided who they were going to kill, but it was bush who actually ordered it, and there weren't lists, it was single targets, then the story would not be literally true, but it would still be close enough to be true imo..

I didn't know the vp was outside the chain of command until reading this thread though, which makes me doubt the story more than when I voted.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
lotus dweller
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
Avatar
To me it matters who is being killed and on what evidence.

If it was clear and lethal danger and the evidence was good then I'm not worried much.

But Cheney?
But the evidence against some Gitmo detainees?
But the evidence from torture in Torturestan?

Maybe it was Haliburton competitors they was taking out?
Or anti-hunting activists? Hmmmmm.... silver lining! I'm an optimist!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Actually i'm surprised that anyone could think that Cheney is NOT capable of pulling this off. He made the office of the VP more powerful than it's ever been. Under the blank check umbrella of the War on Terror, this seems entirely plausible.

What's the difference between sending a Predator drone into Pakistan to kill a car load of suspected terrorists and sending in a Blackhawk with Special Forces to assassinate the same. If the Black Ops were going in and assassinating people like Kim Jon Il, then you could really go after Cheney, but I think since September 11th, stuff like this will easily be explained away, if it ever could be proved.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheChin! wrote:
Actually i'm surprised that anyone could think that Cheney is NOT capable of pulling this off. He made the office of the VP more powerful than it's ever been. Under the blank check umbrella of the War on Terror, this seems entirely plausible.


Pull Cheney out of the equation and think about it. The office of the VP has no standing in the official chain of command of the US armed forces. So for this to happen, the Defense Department would have to permit it to occur (I don't find that likely) and the individual officers involved would have to be willing to accept and act on orders from someone with no legal authority to give them (I don't find that likely, either). This is not to say the VP isn't briefed on military matters and even classified military matters - since he's next in line for the office of the President, that's bound to happen. But until he assumes the office of the Presidency through some legal means, he's not in the command structure.

Now, do you think that a group of officers would risk their careers and potentially prison time to take orders from a person who cannot legally give them? I don't. So unless there's a super-secret act of Congress out there that specifically authorized the action (again, possible, but highly unlikely), I don't see it happening. The chain of command is critical to military operations and our officers are unlikely to accept ad hoc modifications to it.

Cheney or any VP isn't where the story doesn't make sense. There's no reason for any military personnel to ever accept their orders as legal and binding.

And JSOC absolutely does exist. It may even be tasked with the missions described. But the story has enough inconsistencies to be questionable without external confirmation.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
perfalbion wrote:

Pull Cheney out of the equation and think about it. The office of the VP has no standing in the official chain of command of the US armed forces. So for this to happen, the Defense Department would have to permit it to occur (I don't find that likely) and the individual officers involved would have to be willing to accept and act on orders from someone with no legal authority to give them (I don't find that likely, either). This is not to say the VP isn't briefed on military matters and even classified military matters - since he's next in line for the office of the President, that's bound to happen. But until he assumes the office of the Presidency through some legal means, he's not in the command structure.

Now, do you think that a group of officers would risk their careers and potentially prison time to take orders from a person who cannot legally give them? I don't. So unless there's a super-secret act of Congress out there that specifically authorized the action (again, possible, but highly unlikely), I don't see it happening. The chain of command is critical to military operations and our officers are unlikely to accept ad hoc modifications to it.

Cheney or any VP isn't where the story doesn't make sense. There's no reason for any military personnel to ever accept their orders as legal and binding.

And JSOC absolutely does exist. It may even be tasked with the missions described. But the story has enough inconsistencies to be questionable without external confirmation.


This assumes that Bush does not intervene. If Bush makes a secret-executive order giving Cheney control of this one military asset as part of his War On Terror real-or-not mandate, then it has at least superficial legality, at least as far as chain of command goes. All it takes it one Ollie North to be the military officer "filtering" where the orders come from and the rest if the unit would not even know that the VP is the boss. I think from all the public "rules lawyering" the Bush administration did, this would be relatively simple to construct.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, not being an expert on military law, I'd simply expect that it'd be harder than you're laying out. I don't believe the President could delegate control of a military unit of any form to a civilian without other steps, since that'd be a pretty significant change in the chain of command. Since that's really what the VP is (from a Constitutional military perspective, anyway), I'd expect other activities would be required to make it work.

Could it have happened? Sure. I'm just skeptical that the military itself wouldn't have made a stink, and quite possibly a fairly public one.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
renegade garou wrote:
in the context of journalism, the story could still be true, even if some details are wrong.


By "some details" you mean that the story says that Dick Cheney is personally ordering the armed forces to kill people with no other oversight or authority, and that's actually not the case? That seems a pretty significant matter to sweep under the rug of "details".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Hancock
United States
Charleston
West Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I hope Cheney didn't turn over control of these death squads to the Obama administration. Hopefully he is still running them from a Halliburton oil rig in the gulf of mexico or somewhere.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John So-And-So
United States
Fresno
California
flag msg tools
badge
You and the Cap'n make it hap'n
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I picture each Cheney death squad being led by a shotgun-toting clone of Cheney himself, grown from a petri dish of pure liquid evil in a lab in Quantico.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Sauberer
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Whenever I hear complex conspiracy stories from ether the right or left I am reminded of Ben Franklin's observation that a maximum of 3 people can keep a secret and that's if two of them are dead.

This one sounds like it ranks right up there with the Vince Foster murder stories.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Morris
United States
Raytown
Missouri
flag msg tools
2nd, 6th and 7th Wisconsin, 19th Indiana, 24th Michigan
badge
24th Michigan Monument Gettysburg Pa
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Reminds me of a story I heard recently about how someone had copies of all the Bush/Cheney e-mails from their years in the White House. He was on a plane to Washington to hand them over to the justice department when his plane crashed mysteriously and he was killed. The media was covering it up. The person who told me the story was incensed by it and insisted he had seen it on MSNBC so it was true.

There was a problem with his "news". I too had heard the same story. Problem is I had heard it 8 years earlier and the man who died in the plane crash had copies of all the Clinton/Gore e-mails from their years in the White House. He was on a plane to Washington to hand them over to the justice department when his plane crashed mysteriously and the media was covering it up.

The story was no more true 8 years ago about Clinton than it was today about Bush. Problem is you couldn't convince Captain Conspiracy of that because he wanted to believe it so much because it confirmed all his beliefs about Bush. Just as people who believed it 8 years ago likely did because they wanted it to be true as it confirmed all their beliefs about Clinton.

I like the quote from Ben Franklin because it's so true. It's why it's impossible to believe all these conspiracy theories. Does anyone really believe that in an age when the President can't even get it on with an intern in the Oval Office without the world finding out that these massive conspiracies exist? Conspiracies that would have to involve hundreds if not thousands of people keeping secrets for decades.

I think the only mystery is how people can believe this kind of junk and still have enough brain cells to still tie their shoes.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mrbeankc wrote:
I think the only mystery is how people can believe this kind of junk and still have enough brain cells to still tie their shoes.


Ha ha! That's where we are efficient, we use velcro! And if I decide to not wear shoes at all, I can even comprehend 1 out of 3 words in USA today!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheChin! wrote:
Ha ha! That's where we are efficient, we use velcro! And if I decide to not wear shoes at all, I can even comprehend 1 out of 3 words in USA today!


USA Today increased their target reading level?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.