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Subject: Amphitheatre: How immediate is immediate? Can immediate interrupt immediate? rss

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Randall Bart
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I know that "upon completion" building effects are immediate, but how immediate? Can one immediate interrupt another immediate? When one immediate interrupts another immediate, do you have to finish the interrupting immediate before resuming the interrupted immediate?

Example 1: I complete Amphitheatre, which gives me 11 Craftsman actions. I use three of those Craftsman actions to start and complete a School, emptying my hand. The School gives me 13 Thinker actions, so I draw 17 cards. May I now use my remaining 8 Craftsman actions to play from my hand?

Example 2: The same as #1, except there is a card left in my hand when I finish the School. May/must I use a Craftsman action on that card before using the School function?

Example 3: I complete the School giving me 13 Thinker actions. I use a Thinker action to bring my hand to 5. I use three Craftsman actions. I use another Thinker action to draw three cards. I have 5 Craftsman actions and 11 Thinker actions still to go.

I think #1 is okay. For #2, it's clear that you are never forced to lay a foundation, so a card can stay in your hand. If you wanted to use it, you should use it before completing the School. If for some reason you didn't use it before completing the school then it is in your hand when the Thinker actions are triggered.

The tendency in this game is to allow whatever can be allowed, but #3 seems much to me. I would disallow using Craftsman actions between the Thinker actions. I am allowing the School to interrupt the Amphitheatre, but not the revers, because the Amphitheatre is creating the School, and thereby causing its own interruption. There's no way that a Thinker action would cause the School to be interrupted.

I think I had one other case where completing a building with the Amphitheatre had a timing issue. An official ruling from CFG on Amphitheatre and School would probably resolve that one as well.
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Noreen Walsh-Esrey
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We tend to play that immediate means immediate, even if it interrupts another immediate. But that you can't just put all your immediates in a pool and use them in whichever order you want.

Sometimes a flow chart helps.
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mojo shivers
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I would say that whatever "upon completion" building finishes last always takes precedence. You finish those actions and then take whatever actions from any other roles from buildings you finished earlier.

It's not a pretty fix, but it is easier to follow, then layering actions of two different roles together.
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zingor1066 wrote:
We tend to play that immediate means immediate, even if it interrupts another immediate. But that you can't just put all your immediates in a pool and use them in whichever order you want.

Sometimes a flow chart helps.

That's what we do...
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Robert
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I believe it was previously stated that you can order the actions you receive however you like, so the "pool" view is in fact correct, although I couldn't find the thread I was thinking about, so I wouldn't mind seeing it said again.

Also, note that this exact question was previously asked, so it would have been nice to discuss there instead of making a new thread: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/316749 "Timing question with Amphitheater"
 
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Barticus88 wrote:
I know that "upon completion" building effects are immediate, but how immediate? Can one immediate interrupt another immediate? When one immediate interrupts another immediate, do you have to finish the interrupting immediate before resuming the interrupted immediate?

Example 1: I complete Amphitheatre, which gives me 11 Craftsman actions. I use three of those Craftsman actions to start and complete a School, emptying my hand. The School gives me 13 Thinker actions, so I draw 17 cards. May I now use my remaining 8 Craftsman actions to play from my hand?

Example 2: The same as #1, except there is a card left in my hand when I finish the School. May/must I use a Craftsman action on that card before using the School function?

Example 3: I complete the School giving me 13 Thinker actions. I use a Thinker action to bring my hand to 5. I use three Craftsman actions. I use another Thinker action to draw three cards. I have 5 Craftsman actions and 11 Thinker actions still to go.

I think #1 is okay. For #2, it's clear that you are never forced to lay a foundation, so a card can stay in your hand. If you wanted to use it, you should use it before completing the School. If for some reason you didn't use it before completing the school then it is in your hand when the Thinker actions are triggered.

The tendency in this game is to allow whatever can be allowed, but #3 seems much to me. I would disallow using Craftsman actions between the Thinker actions. I am allowing the School to interrupt the Amphitheatre, but not the revers, because the Amphitheatre is creating the School, and thereby causing its own interruption. There's no way that a Thinker action would cause the School to be interrupted.

I think I had one other case where completing a building with the Amphitheatre had a timing issue. An official ruling from CFG on Amphitheatre and School would probably resolve that one as well.


#1 sounds correct to me. As mentioned by the other poster, if you're going to be juggling 2 or more "Upon Completion" cards at once, it helps to have some aid, visual or otherwise to keep track of game flow.


I can picture something like....
--Patron, take a Craftsman, take a Craft action b/c of your Bath...
--finish the Amptitheatre (from here, it's like your example), take 7 Craft Actions
--Finish the School, take a heck of alotta Thinker actions
--go back and finish your Craft actions on the Ampitheatre
--go back and finish taking any remaining clients you're entitled to from the Patron action (e.g., you have 2 Patron clients, so you get 2 more Patron actions)

... to be a fun, royal mess
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Randall Bart
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xethair wrote:
Also, note that this exact question was previously asked, so it would have been nice to discuss there instead of making a new thread: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/316749 "Timing question with Amphitheater"

You're right, I missed that. I looked at the most recent ten to twelve threads then started a new one.

So everyone seems to say the interrupt approach is legal. I can take my Thinker actions for the School, then go back and use the rest of my Craftsman actions from the Amphitheatre. The interleaved/bucket approach is still in doubt.
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Noreen Walsh-Esrey
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The reason I don't like the bucket approach is due to how the rules are worded. On the Foundry, the Ampitheatre, the School, the rules state "at this time once only".

"At this time" is, to me, an imperative. You do this now, or you don't do it.

For example.
I have a Bath and I have just finished my Garden. I may now take 5 patron actions. My first patron draw is a craftsman, he uses his action to finish the School, which gives me seven thinker actions. I do not, at this point, have 4 remaining patron actions and 7 thinking actions to take in any order I choose. Instead, "at this time" I take my seven thinker actions, then return to my original action, which continues my patron actions.

Actually, someone else said this much better in the previous thread:

cfarrell wrote:
To me, the "bucketing" thing seems needlessly complicated and not really supported by the implication of the rules (although they clearly to not specifically address this point, and probably should - although I believe it's only the Amphitheater that creates a problem?). Anyway, the rules say you get the special text of the building as soon as you complete it. To hew to this as closely as possible, it seems like you should interrupt the Amphitheater, do the School, then continue with the Amphitheater. To allow mixing & matching of actions once both buildings are complete seems to stray pretty far from the clear direction to use the building's powers as soon as they are completed. It also seems potentially quite needlessly complicated. In this case, to allow a little more crafting, followed by some thinking, followed by more crafting, then some more thinking, it seems to me offers only minor (and very infrequent at that) advantages while drastically increasing the complexity.


I only disagree with the idea that the rules do not address the point. I think the wording very clearly states "now or never."
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Randall Bart
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zingor1066 wrote:
I only disagree with the idea that the rules do not address the point. I think the wording very clearly states "now or never."


I know it says "now or never" but the rules also give you more than one building power to execute now. The bucket approach puts all the nows in one bucket. You must execute all the nows in the bucket before you can do anything else, but you can execute them in any order. I am not claiming the rules allow that approach, but there's no clear rule saying I can't.
 
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Heh, I think either we're talking across each other, or I've lost track of exactly what each of us mean.

Do you mean by "all nows are in one bucket" that:

You are playing an action that gives you three craft actions, and after your first action you finish something that gives you three think actions, that you now have:

1. Three thinks and two crafts and you can go think, craft, think, craft, think.

OR

2. Three thinks and two crafts, but you can either finish your two crafts then do your three thinks or do the three thinks then finish the two crafts.

Or do you think that both options are equally as valid?

 
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I am new to this game, and having just had a "GtR weekend" with about seven games now under my belt, this very issue came up for us yesterday.

At least for us, we’ve decided not to take the "bucket" approach. I would be surprised if this was the original intention of the designer, but it could just be my MtG background influencing me. As a former (long ago) Magic player -- the "depth" approach with its "interrupt" of an "instant" timing is intuitive for me and could make the most sense for GtR.

However as already mentioned, I think a strong case could be made for the "breadth" approach that has you deal fully with the first "upon completion" effect, then with the resulting consequences of that effect.

Another idea that came up for us too (and to take the "now or never" method even further): one could say that choosing to interrupt the instant is a decision to forfeit the remaining actions of that which is interrupted. So if I complete an Amphitheatre to activate (in my case 16) craftsman actions, and then complete a School -- either I choose to finish my craftsman actions and forfeit the School function, OR I finish my craftsman actions, but not both. Just a thought/question that occurred during play.

Anyhoo, without the designer/publisher having weighed in on the issue, we can only speculate at the original intention. Has anyone tried contacting them? I see that Ed Carter of Cambridge Games hasn’t logged in for awhile. Perhaps I’ll try emailing through their website...



(edits: the spelling and grammar gods have forsaken me again...)
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Sungarden3 wrote:

Another idea that came up for us too (and to take the "now or never" method even further): one could say that choosing to interrupt the instant is a decision to forfeit the remaining actions of that which is interrupted. So if I complete an Amphitheatre to activate (in my case 16) craftsman actions, and then complete a School -- either I choose to finish my craftsman actions and forfeit the School function, OR I finish my craftsman actions, but not both. Just a thought/question that occurred during play.


Ohhh, I had thought of that, but it was so scary my brain skittered away from the very idea.surprise
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Here's the current CGF ruling:

Immediate means immediate; it does not mean "whenever you want later this turn" and it does not mean "as soon as you finish doing whatever you are doing". You do not have the option of waiting to take the some or all of the actions. You must do all of them right now, then resume whatever you were doing.

Example 1 is the correct way of doing things. The other two are not legal. Even so, it's pretty rare for a player to trigger more than one immediate action and not win the game (or at least end it).

Also note that it is pretty common for immediate actions to end the game in the middle of someone's turn. If the last foundation is laid or the last card is drawn the game ends IMMEDIATELY. The current player does not even finish his/her turn.

Barticus88 wrote:

Example 1: I complete Amphitheatre, which gives me 11 Craftsman actions. I use three of those Craftsman actions to start and complete a School, emptying my hand. The School gives me 13 Thinker actions, so I draw 17 cards. May I now use my remaining 8 Craftsman actions to play from my hand?

Example 2: The same as #1, except there is a card left in my hand when I finish the School. May/must I use a Craftsman action on that card before using the School function?

Example 3: I complete the School giving me 13 Thinker actions. I use a Thinker action to bring my hand to 5. I use three Craftsman actions. I use another Thinker action to draw three cards. I have 5 Craftsman actions and 11 Thinker actions still to go.
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Randall Bart
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rseater wrote:
Here's the current CGF ruling:

Immediate means immediate; it does not mean "whenever you want later this turn" and it does not mean "as soon as you finish doing whatever you are doing". You do not have the option of waiting to take the some or all of the actions. You must do all of them right now, then resume whatever you were doing.

That's the way I would prefer. The new building (School) interrupts the building you processing (Amphitheatre). You must complete the Actions from the School before resuming the Amphitheatre.

The only reason I was entertaining the bucket approach was that the normal answer in this game is "yes". The word "immediate" is pretty clear, until you are faced with two (or more) immediate things at once.

I am sure that many people play that you must use all your Amphitheatre actions before you perform the power of the buildings you completed. That's the way it would work in a normal game.
 
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Barticus88 wrote:

I am sure that many people play that you must use all your Amphitheatre actions before you perform the power of the buildings you completed. That's the way it would work in a normal game.

I'm not so sure about that. The ruling in a "normal" game would be that a new immediate action trumps an existing immediate action, just as it is here. Think of "immediate" as "cut to the front of the line" which gets superseded by someone cutting in front of that person!
 
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