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Subject: Sounds promising rss

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Tony Chen
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The Masquerade sounds really interesting. He just Village Militiad us. Does he have a Masquerade to follow up, or not? Should I keep 2 Gold and 1 Lab, or 2 Gold and 1 Copper?

Ironworks is just a more powerful Workshop. Not bad, but not too excited either.

I think the Duke would've been more interesting if it had a different price than Duchy. As it is, the economic model for buying them is the same, the only thing you care about is the proportion, and the ideal proportion is always the same: 3 more Duchies than Dukes. It's not like the Province and Duchy, or Province and Garden, where going after one or another drastically changes your deck model.
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Drew Spencer
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The Militia + Masquerade combo does seem interesting, though tough to pull off. It might be a good one to mix with lots of Villages and a few Council Rooms.

Keeping a 5 coin engine going long enough to pick up 4 Duchies and 1 Duke would not be easy. I could see it happening with a few repeated combos of Throne Room and Feast.
 
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David desJardins
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
I think the Duke would've been more interesting if it had a different price than Duchy.


Yeah, it seems like the Duke+Duchy strategy would be a lot more interesting if Dukes cost $4 to give you something to do with your $4 draws (even if it were somewhat weaker to compensate).
 
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Myke Madsen
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DaviddesJ wrote:
drunkenKOALA wrote:
I think the Duke would've been more interesting if it had a different price than Duchy.


Yeah, it seems like the Duke+Duchy strategy would be a lot more interesting if Dukes cost $4 to give you something to do with your $4 draws (even if it were somewhat weaker to compensate).


I've always suspected that the Victory cards are spaced 3 apart to prevent direct Victory card to costlier Victory card Remodeling.
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Mark McEvoy
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HappyProle wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
drunkenKOALA wrote:
I think the Duke would've been more interesting if it had a different price than Duchy.


Yeah, it seems like the Duke+Duchy strategy would be a lot more interesting if Dukes cost $4 to give you something to do with your $4 draws (even if it were somewhat weaker to compensate).


I've always suspected that the Victory cards are spaced 3 apart to prevent direct Victory card to costlier Victory card Remodeling.


Which would fly but for the fact that Gardens cost 4.
 
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David desJardins
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HappyProle wrote:
I've always suspected that the Victory cards are spaced 3 apart to prevent direct Victory card to costlier Victory card Remodeling.


We have $4 Gardens. How would $4 Dukes be any different?
 
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Myke Madsen
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blush

Let's all just delete these last few posts and pretend nothing ever happened. Deal?
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Tom Chappelear
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drunkenKOALA wrote:

I think the Duke would've been more interesting if it had a different price than Duchy. As it is, the economic model for buying them is the same, the only thing you care about is the proportion, and the ideal proportion is always the same: 3 more Duchies than Dukes. It's not like the Province and Duchy, or Province and Garden, where going after one or another drastically changes your deck model.


But you do have to build your strategy around it, right? You are no longer going for Provinces, but instead are trying to hit 5 (and later, 10+buys). For a Duke deck to win, you need to stuff in maybe ten D/D into your deck, which should net you almost 50 points. Since eight is no longer the magic number, you can build a different style of deck designed to hit 5 without fail. I have no idea how it will play out, but it seems like the Garden--once you commit, it'd be silly to try and back out.
 
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Myke Madsen
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There are some interesting dynamics here. In a 3+ player game, if every player goes after Dukes/Duchies, then no one is likely get the ideal points return. But if 1-2 players go after Provinces and ignore Dukes/Duchies then the other player(s) could go after Duchies first and when those are gone start padding their scores with Dukes that won't be nearly as attractive to the Province players. Maybe no one will ignore Duchies if the Duke is in play.

I can't wait to see how it plays out, especially with 3+ players.

 
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Tony Chen
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tomchaps wrote:
drunkenKOALA wrote:

I think the Duke would've been more interesting if it had a different price than Duchy. As it is, the economic model for buying them is the same, the only thing you care about is the proportion, and the ideal proportion is always the same: 3 more Duchies than Dukes. It's not like the Province and Duchy, or Province and Garden, where going after one or another drastically changes your deck model.


But you do have to build your strategy around it, right? You are no longer going for Provinces, but instead are trying to hit 5 (and later, 10+buys). For a Duke deck to win, you need to stuff in maybe ten D/D into your deck, which should net you almost 50 points. Since eight is no longer the magic number, you can build a different style of deck designed to hit 5 without fail. I have no idea how it will play out, but it seems like the Garden--once you commit, it'd be silly to try and back out.

Yes, there will be a difference between Duchy-Duke and Province. Like how there is already a difference between Garden and Province, and Duchy and Province, in the base game.

However, there won't be a difference between Duchy and Duke, as they go together. I suppose that wasn't what they were going for. I'd have liked it for them to introduce a new VP path, instead of enhancing an existing one.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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Quote:
Ironworks is just a more powerful Workshop. Not bad, but not too excited either.


Until you use the Ironworks you'll never realize how good it is.

It'll usually be one that either sells out, or nearly sells out. I think it's one of the top 10 best cards.
 
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David desJardins
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locusshifter wrote:
Until you use the Ironworks you'll never realize how good it is.


Yeah, right.
 
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Tony Chen
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locusshifter wrote:
Quote:
Ironworks is just a more powerful Workshop. Not bad, but not too excited either.


Until you use the Ironworks you'll never realize how good it is.

It'll usually be one that either sells out, or nearly sells out. I think it's one of the top 10 best cards.

I don't doubt that it is good. Whether it is good in a refreshing way is another issue. I guess I'll have to see how it combos with other cards to tell.
 
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Tony Chen
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How about a card that costs 6 coins, and gave 1 VP for every Estate that you have. A bit artificial, but you change your income model partway through the game.
 
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David desJardins
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
How about a card that costs 6 coins, and gave 1 VP for every Estate that you have.


That seems way too good. Knowing you can get them up to about 7 points each very easily, people are going to be doing nothing but rush to buy them.

I could see that card at cost $8. Then you'd have a strategic choice when you start getting $8 buys, and a potential reason not to remodel/trash your Estates.
 
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Tony Chen
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I was thinking between 6 and 7 cost. Note that for them to be worth 6 points each, you would need to have 6 estates in your deck. If you buy them early, they clog up your hand significantly. If you buy them at the end, you might have to "waste" 6 coins on 1 estate, unless you have multiple buys.

It is good when the Province players cannot end the game with depletion of Provinces in a timely manner, giving you plenty of time to get Estates. Otherwise, having to stick in those Estates at the end can be very costly in terms of opportunity cost. Probably better in 2er than 4er games.
 
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David desJardins
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
If you buy them at the end, you might have to "waste" 6 coins on 1 estate, unless you have multiple buys.


Well, then you should arrange to have multiple buys, duh. I agree with that.

If you have 6 of the Estates Owners, your Estate buys are worth 7 VP each, I'm not going to feel bad about "overpaying". If other players are buying Provinces, and I've got just 6 Estate Owners and 6 Estates, that's 42 VP. I'm not too worried the other three players are going to beat me with 4 Provinces each. In a two player game, if I buy Estate Owners and Estates, my opponent is going to have to clog his deck with some Estates too or I'm really going to run away with the game. I can just see the game where I've got 6 Estate Owners and 11 Estates for 77 VP. Who cares if he gets all 8 Provinces, he can have all 8 Duchies too. Sorry, but this is way too good for a $6 card.
 
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Tony Chen
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If you have 6 of the Estates Owners, your Estate buys are worth 7 VP each

Well yes, but you can't say, the Estate Owners are worth 7VP each because I am going to have 7 Estates, and then come around and say Estates are worth 7VP each because I am going to have 6 Estate Owners. That's 13 cards, 7 times 13 is 91 points. But in actuality, you have 49 points.

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If other players are buying Provinces, and I've got just 6 Estate Owners and 6 Estates, that's 42 VP. I'm not too worried the other three players are going to beat me with 4 Provinces each.

But what makes you think you can get 6 Estate Owners and 6 Estates before others can get 4 Provinces? If it were that easy, and having 10+ instead of 4 cloggers weren't that costly, players would get 6 Duchies and 7 Estates. That'd beat 4 Provinces too.

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In a two player game, if I buy Estate Owners and Estates, my opponent is going to have to clog his deck with some Estates too or I'm really going to run away with the game. I can just see the game where I've got 6 Estate Owners and 11 Estates for 77 VP. Who cares if he gets all 8 Provinces, he can have all 8 Duchies too.

I agree with that.

I am thinking about cost 7 now. And I think it is alright if it were better than the Province in some situations, just like how the Gardens make you forget about Duchies in some setups.
 
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Tony Chen
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Well, then you should arrange to have multiple buys, duh.

Well yes. But depending on the setup, that may or may not be convenient, or even possible.
 
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David desJardins
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
But what makes you think you can get 6 Estate Owners and 6 Estates before others can get 4 Provinces?


Set up a solitaire game and see how fast you can buy six $6 cards and three $2 cards. I bet you find it is awfully fast.

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If it were that easy, and having 10+ instead of 4 cloggers weren't that costly, players would get 6 Duchies and 7 Estates. That'd beat 4 Provinces too.


No, the player with 4 Provinces and the 3 original Estates would win that one. And that's assuming he doesn't buy any Duchies.

6 Estate Owners and 6 Estates for 42 VP is just way better than 6 Duchies and 6 Estates for 24 VP. To say the former isn't too good because if it was the latter would be too good also, well, I just don't see it.

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Well yes. But depending on the setup, that may or may not be convenient, or even possible.


Most setups have a reasonable way to get an extra buy (or card gain like Workshop that does the same thing). Anyway, if you're trying to decide if a card is too grossly overpowered, you have to consider in the context of reasonable likely combinations, not only in the case where none of the cards that would have synergy with it are on the table. At least that's how it seems to me.
 
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Tony Chen
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I was talking about Chapeled decks with 4 Provinces. The extra time required if they didn't Chapel, would let you buy another Duchy to make up for the 3 Estate deficit (or non-deficit).

In a 2er game, a Bureaucrat deck barely beats a Chapel deck. That's aiming for 3 Provinces, 3 Duchies, and 3 Estates, versus 5 Provinces. The Chapel deck is slowed by the Bureaucrat attack to boot, but you still barely beat him by a net of 3 Duchies versus 2 Provinces. It's because you are held down by cloggers like the Estates. 3 Estate cloggers can make a big difference.

6 is likely too cheap, but 8 is too expensive. It'd cost just as much as a Province, but worth that much only if you had 6 Estates, which is a considerable cost. I think 7 is about right.

We can actually play this game on BSW. Just pretend the Adventurer was the Estate Owner. If we count it as 7 cost, we'd have to referee ourselves when we buy/remodel for it.
 
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David desJardins
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
We can actually play this game on BSW. Just pretend the Adventurer was the Estate Owner. If we count it as 7 cost, we'd have to referee ourselves when we buy/remodel for it.


If you really think you can beat me in 2p games with $6 Estate Owner without buying them yourself, I am willing to try it sometime. I still don't think it will be close, most of the time. 2p is even worse for you because you have to get to 8 Provinces to end it, that is going to take much longer and I'm adding VPs at a considerably higher rate than you (every extra Estate is another 7 VP for me!!).
 
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Tony Chen
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Actually, in a 2er game, you'd get an interesting dynamic. The opponent can start buying the Estates to force you to buy them earlier than you'd like. That would leave you trying to get the rest of the Estate Owners (cost 7) with ~7 Estates in your deck. The opponent may then Chapel away his Estates and go for Provinces.

At that point, you have 0 Estate deck going for 8 cost 6 VP cards, versus 6 Estate deck going for 7 cost 7 VP cards.
 
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David desJardins
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
At that point, you have 0 Estate deck going for 8 cost 6 VP cards, versus 6 Estate deck going for 7 cost 7 VP cards.


You keep saying 7 cost for some reason, but we're talking about 6 cost. If you've already dropped your original proposal, then we can stop discussing it.
 
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Tony Chen
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DaviddesJ wrote:
drunkenKOALA wrote:
We can actually play this game on BSW. Just pretend the Adventurer was the Estate Owner. If we count it as 7 cost, we'd have to referee ourselves when we buy/remodel for it.


If you really think you can beat me in 2p games with $6 Estate Owner without buying them yourself, I am willing to try it sometime. I still don't think it will be close, most of the time. 2p is even worse for you because you have to get to 8 Provinces to end it, that is going to take much longer and I'm adding VPs at a considerably higher rate than you (every extra Estate is another 7 VP for me!!).

Did I say that? If anything:

Quote:
It is good when the Province players cannot end the game with depletion of Provinces in a timely manner, giving you plenty of time to get Estates...Probably better in 2er than 4er games.


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Quote:
In a two player game, if I buy Estate Owners and Estates, my opponent is going to have to clog his deck with some Estates too or I'm really going to run away with the game. I can just see the game where I've got 6 Estate Owners and 11 Estates for 77 VP. Who cares if he gets all 8 Provinces, he can have all 8 Duchies too.

I agree with that.


I do not think one can win without getting it himself in a 2er game. But it is not as strong as you make it out to be (worth $8), and it is not as good in a 3er or 4er game.
 
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