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Subject: First Mover Disadvantage with Trade Proposals, or Respond to Every Trade Proposal! rss

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David F
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This is for people who complain that trades are hard to make on this site, or people who value their games exorbitantly. I'd like to mention that if you receive an outrageous trade offer from somebody, reply to it and politely state your reason why you won't accept it, offer an alternative proposal, and try to make a trade, instead of declining without reason or just ignoring the offer.

The way trades are set up on here, the person who proposes the trade is at a disadvantage, because effectively, he is revealing his preferences to you, the propositioned, while your preferences remain hidden. It is thus natural for him to compensate for this by offering a trade that is more in his favor, because it is better for him to err on that side of the proposal. If he offers too high, you might accept it, and deprive him of the opportunity to get more for his offer; if he offers too low, it's simply a decline. Think of it this way: if I'm submitting a monetary offer to you to buy a game, of course I'm going to offer it far below my valuation for it to begin the bargaining process, because if I submit too high and you accept, I'll rue that I probably could have obtained the item for a cheaper price. What is needed is for some two-way bargaining and negotiation to go on, such that I eventually offer a higher price that is closer to my reservation price.

I've received many, many trade offers, where my first reaction was WTFOMGYOUTHINKMYGAMESGROWONTREES?!?! But after I "calmed down" enough to send a reply and explain my refusal, I've often eventually come up with a mutually agreeable trade with the other party. Almost all my trades have been a result of that: a willingness to bargain and negotiate, instead of a flat "no" or ignore. Most of the traders on here aren't here to saddle you with Space Hulk right before the reprint is announced, while they make off with your pristine out-of-print game. They're just sending you exorbitant offers to protect themselves. It's up to both parties to hammer out the terms of the proposal. Think of the initial offer as a willingness to start a conversation, and in need of your reciprocity, not as an insult upon your game collection.

Just my 2 cents to help trades run smoother. (And *cough*, I wish more people would respond to my offers)
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Chris Okasaki
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There are many, many people on this site, including me, who have zero interest in haggling. Sending a lowball initial offer to such a person, even if it's interpreted as an invitation to haggle rather than as "I'm hoping you're dumb enough to accept this", is always going to be refused.

Maybe there should be microbadges for "likes to haggle" / "hates to haggle" to better help traders to calibrate their initial offers.
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Thomas Eastside, Esq.
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cokasaki wrote:
There are many, many people on this site, including me, who have zero interest in haggling. Sending a lowball initial offer to such a person, even if it's interpreted as an invitation to haggle rather than as "I'm hoping you're dumb enough to accept this", is always going to be refused.

Maybe there should be microbadges for "likes to haggle" / "hates to haggle" to better help traders to calibrate their initial offers.


I agree. Lowball offers are annoying. A couple weeks ago, I received an offer to trade my Bonaparte at Marengo for Avalon Hill's New World. Can that even be considered a realistic offer? Of course, I just replied that the offer was ridiculous and that I'd be better off selling BaM, buying New World, and pocketing the 50+ dollar difference.
 
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Christopher Seguin
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Yeah, but sometimes you just never know when a "lowball" trade in one person's eyes is actually an excellent trade to another person.

Would any of you have participated in any of these trades?:


Star Wars: Epic Duels for War of the Ring (First Edition)

Hey, That's My Fish! for Friedrich

Race for the Galaxy, Return of the Heroes, and Under the Shadow of the Dragon ALL FOR Dominion

Warhammer 40,000 (fourth edition) (about 100 models) ALL FOR THE FOLLOWING:

Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game
Notre Dame
Munchkin
Munchkin 2: Unnatural Axe
Munchkin 3: Clerical Errors
Munchkin 4: The Need for Steed
Munchkin Dice

I have been a party to all of the trades mentioned above in one form or another. Some may consider them outrageous, while others don't.

To some, outrageous trades are just that, but to others, some outrageous deals are quite worth it. It all depends on perspective. Maybe you just dislike playing BaM and don't feel like dealing with the hassle of having to sell it on the Marketplace or Ebay, and would rather just get a new game for it instead. Maybe not. But each trade only happens if each person sees a relatively equal value.

In the mind of the OP'er, a reasonable response that says "I don't see this trade as relatively equal value" would solve any issues.
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Jason Epp
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Out of respect for the great community we have here, when making a trade proposal I always try to make a fair offer right from the start... if I'm really not sure what's considered "fair" (ie. out of print game or multiple games), then I usually send a geekmail first to see if my offer would be considered or if any they would be interested in any "sweeteners". I've made some fantastic trades in the past few months that made both sides extremely happy & I think that's what trading is all about here. I think sending lowball offers goes against the spirit of BGG & as with anything in life, communication is the key to success... any other thoughts out there?
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selwyth wrote:
because if I submit too high and you accept, I'll rue that I probably could have obtained the item for a cheaper price


Simpsons wrote:
Homer: Ya know Mr. Burns, you're the richest guy I know - way richer than Lenny.
Mr. Burns: Yes, but I'd trade it all for a little more.


This way lies madness. No matter what your strategy, you can never be certain that you squeezed the maximum out of your partner. Rather than worry about what might have been, ask yourself if you are happier with what you have than what you had. If so, well done and rest easy.
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Chad Egbert
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This topic will go on forever on BGG, it's been discussed before and will be discussed again.

I agree with the OP that users should be open to responding to offers and try working out trades. Yes, not everyone values their games the same but you'll never know what kind of trade you may be able to work out if you don't respond or respond with a flat out "no".
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Thomas Eastside, Esq.
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chrisnd wrote:
Yeah, but sometimes you just never know when a "lowball" trade in one person's eyes is actually an excellent trade to another person.

Would any of you have participated in any of these trades?:


Star Wars: Epic Duels for War of the Ring (First Edition)

Hey, That's My Fish! for Friedrich

Race for the Galaxy, Return of the Heroes, and Under the Shadow of the Dragon ALL FOR Dominion

Warhammer 40,000 (fourth edition) (about 100 models) ALL FOR THE FOLLOWING:

Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game
Notre Dame
Munchkin
Munchkin 2: Unnatural Axe
Munchkin 3: Clerical Errors
Munchkin 4: The Need for Steed
Munchkin Dice

I have been a party to all of the trades mentioned above in one form or another. Some may consider them outrageous, while others don't.

To some, outrageous trades are just that, but to others, some outrageous deals are quite worth it. It all depends on perspective. Maybe you just dislike playing BaM and don't feel like dealing with the hassle of having to sell it on the Marketplace or Ebay, and would rather just get a new game for it instead. Maybe not. But each trade only happens if each person sees a relatively equal value.

In the mind of the OP'er, a reasonable response that says "I don't see this trade as relatively equal value" would solve any issues.


I guess we see it differently. I generally try to propose a trade where the values are roughly equal. Sure, some may prefer to start a different way. But, I'm not going to start offering Milles Bornes for Full Metal Planete any time soon. And I'll continue reject (with a response) unequal trades.
 
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Ed Sherman
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cokasaki wrote:
There are many, many people on this site, including me, who have zero interest in haggling.


There's "haggling" and there's "I value this game more highly than you." Sometimes they're trying to lowball you, sometimes it's an honest mistake, like if the other person didn't realize the game was OOP or something.

Dreadnaut wrote:
I generally try to propose a trade where the values are roughly equal.


Actually in some of those examples, it's pretty equal. Have you priced Star Wars: Epic Duels? Or 100 or so Warhammer minis?
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Flying Arrow
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Yeah, for the War of the Ring/Epic Duels I wasn't sure who was supposed to be getting the better deal on that one.
 
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If you want to haggle, send a message first.
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edosan wrote:
cokasaki wrote:
There are many, many people on this site, including me, who have zero interest in haggling.


There's "haggling" and there's "I value this game more highly than you." Sometimes they're trying to lowball you, sometimes it's an honest mistake, like if the other person didn't realize the game was OOP or something.


There's also "I had NO IDEA it was that valuable!" Especially when dealing with long-OOP games that one party or the other may not have heard about until recently, and has little market history on this site.

If one can't be bothered with typing and sending a 10-12 word reply, it's a wonder they can be bothered with trading at all.
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Thomas Eastside, Esq.
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edosan wrote:
cokasaki wrote:
There are many, many people on this site, including me, who have zero interest in haggling.


There's "haggling" and there's "I value this game more highly than you." Sometimes they're trying to lowball you, sometimes it's an honest mistake, like if the other person didn't realize the game was OOP or something.

Dreadnaut wrote:
I generally try to propose a trade where the values are roughly equal.


Actually in some of those examples, it's pretty equal. Have you priced Star Wars: Epic Duels? Or 100 or so Warhammer minis?


I haven't. But I didn't offer or accept that trade either (and the only one of those trades that seemed uneven to me was the Dominion/Friedrich ones). Of course, if I was into Warhammer, I would think I would be able to.
 
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Carol Carpenter
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Many times I have run across people who joined BGG, marked some games for trade, but haven't been here in a year or more.
So first thing to do is to check a user's last login date. If it's even 2 months ago or more, it's unlikely you'll hear back.
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Some folks seem to think that there's a blue book value for old OOP games. I always try to come up with a fairly even trade, money-wise, but a lot of the games I want have very little price history. Even those that do tend to vary pretty significantly. It's tough to come up with a fair price for and OOP game. So I make an offer for what seems fair, and let it be known that I'm willing to negotiate, because game value can be so subjective.

If we disagree about the value of a game, that's one thing, but not even bothering to send me a counter-offer because my best guess about a game's value is off a little? That's absurd.
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Chad Egbert
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ExcitingJeff wrote:
If we disagree about the value of a game, that's one thing, but not even bothering to send me a counter-offer because my best guess about a game's value is off a little? That's absurd.


Right on brother!
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Jason Farris
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I treat this like home buying. Sure the scale is different, but the essence is the same. You can low ball me an offer and I will simply punch the decline and move on. I have no need to make a counter offer or offer to haggle because:

1. you know what it's worth and are intentionally trying to get a ridiculous deal. I don't want to haggle from the bottom up, so we are done

or

2. you honestly don't know the value of what you want, and I don't feel like educating you and going through complaints (perhaps on both sides) of over valuing.

Yes, not every game has a nifty blue book or price tag on it, but with experience, you can at least get in the ball park. Take the time to research the game on e-bay, BGG, and at online/local game stores and one of these will give you a clue. If you still can't find a value, then write the other person and ask them what they value it at before wasting their time with a low ball offer.

I am willing to haggle, but we at least need to start on the same planet.


The most egregious example was an offer I received of chrononauts for my Antiquity. I'm sorry, I'm not going to haggle over that.
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Christopher Seguin
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Yeah, for the War of the Ring/Epic Duels I wasn't sure who was supposed to be getting the better deal on that one.


Funny you should say that.

I think that for both of us involved, we each got the better deal.

To me, I found Epic Duels tiresome and boring, and highly repetitive. I also feel that the Star Wars license has lost some of its luster and has essentially been whored out.

On the other hand, I enjoy nearly anything associated with the Lord of the Rings (and some may argue that that license has been whored out, too). But my value of LotR eclipses that of Star Wars. My intention was never to get "top dollar" for Epic Duels (if there is a market for Epic Duels that is Top Dollar) - instead, it was to see if I could get a reasonably decent game for it. I figured that since I paid $15 at Target 8 year ago, that getting any reasonably enjoyable game that is still in print would be worth it. Turns out, the guy that sent me War of the Ring liked it about as much as I liked Epic Duels, and was therefore willing to accept my offer. Dollar-wise there is no way these are the same, especially since WotR was in printing limbo at the time of the trade, and FFG wasn't sure if they were going to reprint it.

For both of us, it was a win-win situation, and we both felt as though the value for our respective side of the trade was top notch.

By the way, for those that are curious, I was on the receiving end of War of the Ring (obviously, as stated above), the receiving end of Freidrich (which I immediately traded away for Plague & Pestilence), the giving away of Dominion, and the giving away of Warhammer 40K.

Personally, I think I got the best deal on all 4 of those trades. I bet the guy who made the trade with me thinks exactly the same thing.
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James Ludlow
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chrisnd wrote:
I also feel that the Star Wars license has lost some of its luster and has essentially been whored out.


Sure, but what about after 1977?

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chrisnd wrote:
Dollar-wise there is no way these are the same, especially since WotR was in printing limbo at the time of the trade, and FFG wasn't sure if they were going to reprint it.


I can't speak for the time of the trade, but right now they're pretty close.

Epic Duels is going for $60 or more on ebay (for a complete game).
War of the Ring is $50 new in the BGG marketplace.
 
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Randolph Bookman
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[q="chrisnd"]Yeah, but sometimes you just never know when a "lowball" trade in one person's eyes is actually an excellent trade to another person.


Aggreed. I recently traded a star wars and bsg ccg for Keythedral.

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FlyingArrow wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
Dollar-wise there is no way these are the same, especially since WotR was in printing limbo at the time of the trade, and FFG wasn't sure if they were going to reprint it.


I can't speak for the time of the trade, but right now they're pretty close.

Epic Duels is going for $60 or more on ebay (for a complete game).



Try 128.00 The flip side to this is someone who is trading or selling a free expansion for a game they don't own and they want either a ridiculous amount of money (those $20-25 stone age huts come to mind) or want to trade them for your War of the ring.
 
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I have been on both sides of this fence, Sometimes I get busy with life and just don't have the energy to frame a proper response to a trade offer. Some are very lopsided and I just don't have time to frame a nice answer without being a total ass, so I just say no. It is faster that way and better than no response.
I find it best to send a Geekmail expressing interest before making a trade offer. That way you can gauge the traders interest level. Some games I have listed for trade would be very hard to get me to part with. They are usually listed to draw in other hard to find or long out of print games, not a few new, easily obtainable games that the shine has faded from.
I try to say this in some responses, but if I am really busy, I just decline and move on. Sending a Geekmail first can solve a lot of these issues.
A few months ago, Flying Colors was getting me bombed with offers, many very lopsided. I finally took it off my trade list, as I am now waiting for the expansion for it to arrive.
In the last few weeks, Flowerpower has been keeping me busy with offers. It goes in cycles like that and it just gets hard to keep up with it 100% of the time.
Since I live in both camps, I have empathy with all and have just learned to calm down and go with the flow. If my slow response or lack of reasons for declining an offer offends you this week, check back later if you wish, I might be in a better frame of mind. If you wish to avoid me, that is your choice, but I have many trades here on BGG, twice as many as listed (we did not always have that trade function).
When I start soon actively trading down my collection, I know I will be mildly upset when responses to trade inquiries don't come in, but after being on that side of the fence, I know it just is a fact of life that your involvement level is different at different times. So, I will move on and try someone else.
Maybe you again in a few weeks.
 
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chrisnd wrote:
Yeah, but sometimes you just never know when a "lowball" trade in one person's eyes is actually an excellent trade to another person.

Would any of you have participated in any of these trades?:


Star Wars: Epic Duels for War of the Ring (First Edition)

Hey, That's My Fish! for Friedrich

Race for the Galaxy, Return of the Heroes, and Under the Shadow of the Dragon ALL FOR Dominion

Warhammer 40,000 (fourth edition) (about 100 models) ALL FOR THE FOLLOWING:

Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game
Notre Dame
Munchkin
Munchkin 2: Unnatural Axe
Munchkin 3: Clerical Errors
Munchkin 4: The Need for Steed
Munchkin Dice

I have been a party to all of the trades mentioned above in one form or another. Some may consider them outrageous, while others don't.

To some, outrageous trades are just that, but to others, some outrageous deals are quite worth it. It all depends on perspective. Maybe you just dislike playing BaM and don't feel like dealing with the hassle of having to sell it on the Marketplace or Ebay, and would rather just get a new game for it instead. Maybe not. But each trade only happens if each person sees a relatively equal value.

In the mind of the OP'er, a reasonable response that says "I don't see this trade as relatively equal value" would solve any issues.


Agreed.

Case in point, I traded my entire Magic collection (including several rares I could have made a lot of money for) for a base set of Heroscape.

You may think that I was crazy, but you'd be wrong.

For me, I had ZERO emotional attachment to the game. Sure, I saved a few of my favorite decks, but that was more on the line of sentimental value; not a chance that I would ever pick up the game again.

Another thing was that it was for a father whose son wanted to get into the game. As a father myself, I thought it was a touching sentiment and went ahead with the trade.

I gave something to someone who would get more enjoyment out of it now, rather than let the cards gather dust in my garage or closet.

Yes, I get aggravated by people who don't respond to offers or who lowball. But, you know what? The ones that don't respond with something as simple as a "no thanks" aren't worth my time and are summarily excluded from any other trading possibilities with me.

As for the ones who "lowball", I always make the effort to check what else they have for trade and try to make a counter offer. If there is nothing that I want, then I say, "no thanks" and move on.


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Another tool people could use would be to put in the trade box a want or offer value for each item. Then others could see what you would be willing to pay for a game or what you would be willing to accept for a game. Then traders look for equal dollar amounts.

Then you could use some of the tools here on the geek to search for trades.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/1199329#1199329

http://boardgamestuff.com/cgi/valueloop
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