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Corsairs and Hellcats» Forums » General

Subject: Is GMT's DiF Rendered obsolete by DVG's DiF? rss

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Ralph T
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I'm about to receive Corsairs & Hellcats in a math trade. I wonder whether I should keep it or attempt to sell/trade it, whether it's rendered obsolete by Down in Flames: Aces High.

There are some things I like about the old DiF series: duplicates of the same plane, bigger battles because of wingmen, green pilots, less fantastic damage on the planes, nicer counters. For the most part it's just cosmetic though.
 
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Geo
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I also prefer playing with Wingmen, so i am keeping my old DiF series instead of upgrading to the new version.
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Dan Dolan
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I got the old stuff and it works just fine. DVG is trying to get some sales from folks who liked the old game but are junkies for new stuff.

If you have the old DiF why would you need to buy a new one? Is it gonna be THAT much better? Is DVG going to do as good a quality printing job as GMT?
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Christopher O
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Summer grasses / All that remains / Of soldiers' dreams. - Basho.
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The new game is much improved. I did not buy it because I am a "junkie" for new stuff - it has some significant design changes and improvements.

Speaking frankly, the campaign game is not improved, in my opinion, but all other aspects of dogfighting and aerial combat are (in my opinion).

I own all of the original DiF series and enjoy them. They are not rendered "obsolete" by the new game. The new game is different and interesting. I find the new artwork a bit too bright, but the general quality of components is fine.

Considering this is Mr. Verssen's design, I don't think it's unfair for him to want to sell more copies of an improved game.
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David Lanphear
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Is DIF-New better than DIF-Classic? Don't know, don't care. I'm having way to much fun with DIF classic and I only was just introduced to it three days ago at the GMT West convention. Since the GM of the DIF Campaign will continue to use the "Classic" version (something the group threw out when we had this discussion and decided to call it that to differentiate it from Dan's new version and not an official title or designation) then that's what I'll play because the campaign was so freaking fun! And that's why I play! In Dan's mind I'm sure he believes he made it a better game and that's a good enough reason to respect his decision to change whatever he did. I can't make that call as I'm not likely to be playing it anytime soon. But to answer the OP's question, then no and for the reasons I cited earlier.

 
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Andreas Ludwig
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No the classic DiF series by GMT is certainly not rendered obsolete by the new DVG edition. The graphics are better, there are more ratings to further differentiate the fighters and there's more dynamic in the dogfights. The downside is that this dynamic doesn't really portray the reality of formations in WWII (both the RAF and the Luftwaffe had some strict formation rules and to eliminate the wingman concept in the DVG game was simply done to make the game easier by removing a rather important 'simulative' aspect from the game) and the campaign game is even more simplified - it's just a dogfight now with some chit-flipping for bombing/Flak at the end, it's boring and not worth playing if you know the campaigns from the classic series. The rules are shorter, yes, but that's mostly because the game doesn't allow the players the same many options as before and the rules don't explain many things enough. The DVG version was a BIG disappointment for us and we'll stick to the GMT version - "Aces High" is already sold after one week playing.
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Guy Riessen
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I too traded away Aces High sfter trying to give it a chance from several playings. The removal of the wingman mechanic removes 90% of the strategy (and the game isn't long on strategy to begin with) and 90% of the fun.
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James Fung
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Phlegm wrote:
I got the old stuff and it works just fine. DVG is trying to get some sales from folks who liked the old game but are junkies for new stuff.

If you have the old DiF why would you need to buy a new one? Is it gonna be THAT much better? Is DVG going to do as good a quality printing job as GMT?

I'd say this is DVG's MO. It's a small company: one designer; in the games that list playtesters, the number is generally less than 5 and include his kids. To produce the number of games they do, are they going to be well-tested, fresh takes on the topic? Or are most going to be ports or iterations on previous systems? I sometimes think Dan should design eurogames since it seems he starts with a mechanic and tweak it to a theme (see DiF: WW1, post-WW2, dragons, etc.).

The OP had neither DiF:C&H or DiF:AH and asked if the new version makes the original obsolete. The trade has long since passed, but my take is this: they are two flavors of ice cream. You can take your pick and still enjoy it knowing that the other is approximately just as good and, if you want to gorge yourself, you could get both.

People have talked about the wingmen thing. Another thing to consider is that GMT's DiF had a Squad Leader thing going on, namely the basic dogfighting game is sleek and fast-playing. But once you add on the bombers, pilots, fuel, jets, loads (gun pods, fuel tanks, rockets, etc.), agility, carrier battles, campaigns, etc. it can be ponderous and clumsy. The other thing is that it's quite clear that these other mechanics were bolted on to the basic mechanic. This is especially true of the expansions, which added ideas that were not retrofitted to earlier aircraft. At the very least, DiF:AH aircraft have stats made under the same rules, i.e. all of them have speed ratings as opposed to just a few select aircraft in DiF:8AF.

Now if someone had taken the time to create a maneuverability rating instead of lumping it into Performance, we could better see the differences between the classic aircraft matchups.
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