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Small World» Forums » General

Subject: Mountain Tokesn -- useless??? rss

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Lance Maxwell
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I'm a little perplexed by the existence of the Moutain tokens.
There are no markings on them to help remind players of their effect, and the place that you put the mountain token is in a mountain portion of the map! What sense does this make?

Nowhere in the instructions does it say anything about their purpose, other than to remind you that you're in a mountain area. Which, of course, you already know because you're in a mountin range.

Maybe these pieces served some purpose during some phase of the play-testing rules but were then changed, making them useless. Then, because they had already committed to physically producing them they had no choice but to put them in the box.

Your thoughts? Did I miss something?

Lance
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Greg Perschbacher
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To conquer a space it is 2 + the number of cardboard; so with a mountain cardboard piece it makes it easy to use that formula and not forget the +1 defense.
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Frank Hamrick
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True, it does serve as a reminder that it requires an extra attack factor to conquer a mountain - but couldn't the mountain's defense factor simply been stated in the rules as a +3 (or it could have been printed directly on the mountain as a reminder)?

It seems (production-wise) it would have been easier/more economical to eliminate the mountain cardboard and to simply have a rule that the base defense factor all areas is 2 except mountain areas which are 3. Add to that +1 per piece of cardboard on an area.

In fact, you could play that way anyway without placing the mountains on the areas.

Perhaps some planned expansion will require the mountain cardboard?


 
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Ryan Hanson
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I think it is exactly for the reason Greg pointed out. It's to streamline the thought process involved in calculating conquests, particularly for new players who are likely to forget about the mountain rule otherwise.

Of course they are not necessary to play with.
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Evan Hitchens
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I played my first two games last night and really appreciated the mountain tokens, for exactly the reason Greg cited. It simply makes the game easier to play.
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David Bell
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We just opened our copy yesterday, and the player that objected most strongly to the redundant nature of the mountain tokens was the first player to totally fail at the math when we tried playing without them.
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MGS
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I love the mountain tokens. They make the game easier to explain. Because of the mountain tokens, excluding special powers and racial abilities, there are no exceptions to explain or remember. Very elegant.
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Kevin Mosley
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I love the mountain tokens as well. It's a lot easier to explain the rules of conquest as "2 + number of cardboard" rather than "2 + the number of cardboard unless it's a mountain in which case it's 3 + the number of cardboard".

Including them in the game was a brilliant move by days of wonder in my opinion.
If you find the mountain tokens annoying, you can simply play without them but at least they are there if you do want to use them.
And let's face it - the game was gonna cost the same with or without the mountain tokens, so just concider them as a bonus
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Mik Svellov
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Ronaldo wrote:
I love the mountain tokens. They make the game easier to explain. Because of the mountain tokens, excluding special powers and racial abilities, there are no exceptions to explain or remember. Very elegant.


Not really!
Instead you NOW have to explain that a Mountain token isn't a token when looking for 'non-empty' regions!
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Anthony Simons
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Great Dane wrote:
Ronaldo wrote:
I love the mountain tokens. They make the game easier to explain. Because of the mountain tokens, excluding special powers and racial abilities, there are no exceptions to explain or remember. Very elegant.


Not really!
Instead you NOW have to explain that a Mountain token isn't a token when looking for 'non-empty' regions!

There's nothing more annoying than something which, though intended to make one rule easier to grasp, makes another more difficult (or inelegant).
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Kevin Mosley
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I hope you're joking
 
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Zack Stackurski
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Yup. They're just dummy tokens... luckily I long ago accepted I am a dummy and appreciate them in this game.
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Guido Gloor
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ZackStack wrote:
Yup. They're just dummy tokens... luckily I long ago accepted I am a dummy and appreciate them in this game.

Exactly I see them as a visual aid, they make me remember which areas are harder to invade while at the same time not having to think more. Nice tradeoff, you could call it a win-win situation.
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Dave G
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haslo wrote:
ZackStack wrote:
Yup. They're just dummy tokens... luckily I long ago accepted I am a dummy and appreciate them in this game.

Exactly I see them as a visual aid, they make me remember which areas are harder to invade while at the same time not having to think more. Nice tradeoff, you could call it a win-win situation.


We've never taken them out of the box. Not only do they seem like a clumsy way to serve the intended purpose, but they're also not particularly well concieved as bits--they're too big for many of the mountain regions, and they just make the game cluttered. I can see why some people might like the reminder, but I also totally get the complaint that they're clunky and useless.
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B C Z
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Great Dane wrote:
Ronaldo wrote:
I love the mountain tokens. They make the game easier to explain. Because of the mountain tokens, excluding special powers and racial abilities, there are no exceptions to explain or remember. Very elegant.


Not really!
Instead you NOW have to explain that a Mountain token isn't a token when looking for 'non-empty' regions!


All RACE TOKENS are pieces of cardboard.
Not all pieces or cardboard are RACE TOKENS.

Occupied == has a RACE TOKEN (whcih is always square)

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I am glad that Johnny Jaws is my friend.
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Small World is a war game, a very light but very fun war game. Because of the comical fantasy theme the game is attracting all kinds of board gamers. Your average wargamer does not need to be reminded of terrain in a movement or conquest phase since terrain is a constant factor in almost every war game out there. Yet players who have entered into the board gaming hobby through games other than war games are probably unaccustomed to factoring in terrain in games they have played. Hence I think it was smart thinking on the part of DOW to include the mountain tokens.

I guess what I find cool about Small World is it can serve as a gateway game to other light to medium war games, like Battle Lore for example.
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Guido Gloor
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Aye, I agree, I believe my wife will really love this once I get her to play

We're turning in circles regarding the mountain tokens of course, one side believes they're useless (since they merely go on mountain fields anyway) and too big, the other believes their size is just right (big enough to be visible below all other tokens, and they fit all mountain fields nicely while leaving the icons for mines etc. visible) and they are a visual aid that makes the game consistent (as in, everything that gives +1 has a token) and also looks nice.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle and it really is unnecessary fluff, but nice and auxiliary fluff as well. Nice and auxiliary unnecessary fluff, so to say.

One of the main differences between this game and Vinci (apart from some updated mechanics) really seems to be the theme's strength though. It is what made me buy the game despite knowing I'd anger my spouse with the "wasted money", as she likes to call it. The mountains are just one part of that, IMHO. They round off the combat mechanics and theme the mountains' part in those as well. (Yes, that's me saying "they're fluff" again )

What I wonder though - as a matter of fact, troll cave tokens are exactly as useful or useless as mountain tokens: All trolls always come with a cave (even swimming ones), and there's never a cave without the troll. Do those who hate mountain tokens also hate troll cave tokens, or are you inconsistent? devil
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Dave G
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haslo wrote:
Aye, I agree, I believe my wife will really love this once I get her to play

We're turning in circles regarding the mountain tokens of course, one side believes they're useless (since they merely go on mountain fields anyway) and too big, the other believes their size is just right (big enough to be visible below all other tokens, and they fit all mountain fields nicely while leaving the icons for mines etc. visible) and they are a visual aid that makes the game consistent (as in, everything that gives +1 has a token) and also looks nice.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle and it really is unnecessary fluff, but nice and auxiliary fluff as well. Nice and auxiliary unnecessary fluff, so to say.

One of the main differences between this game and Vinci (apart from some updated mechanics) really seems to be the theme's strength though. It is what made me buy the game despite knowing I'd anger my spouse with the "wasted money", as she likes to call it. The mountains are just one part of that, IMHO. They round off the combat mechanics and theme the mountains' part in those as well. (Yes, that's me saying "they're fluff" again )

What I wonder though - as a matter of fact, troll cave tokens are exactly as useful or useless as mountain tokens: All trolls always come with a cave (even swimming ones), and there's never a cave without the troll. Do those who hate mountain tokens also hate troll cave tokens, or are you inconsistent? devil


Point well made about the troll caves....I don't mean to be inconsistent, but I do think the caves are a nice touch, but the mountains are just sort of big and clunky. I wouldn't refuse to use the mountain tokens if someone insisted, of course, but I prefer not to.
 
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Mik Svellov
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byronczimmer wrote:
All RACE TOKENS are pieces of cardboard.
Not all pieces or cardboard are RACE TOKENS.

Occupied == has a RACE TOKEN (whcih is always square)


- except, of course, Biouvacks - which only ACTS as if they were race tokens.
 
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