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Dominion: Intrigue» Forums » General

Subject: Will we FINALLY have color-coded treasure cards? rss

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Trey Chambers
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I never thought my biggest complaint with a game would be something superficial. I am the type that doesn't care about glitzy graphics in a videogame. I only care about gameplay.

That being said, why do all 3 coins look like copper? It's a common sense change, but the folks at Rio don't think it's a big deal.

Why? I have no idea. It's a huge deal to me as a customer, and really the only flaw I can find with this game (except that Chapels should cost more than 2...). Many others have echoed this complaint. Give us color coded money, por favor.
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Dave Kudzma
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Nope.
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Chris Schenck
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Shampoo4you wrote:
I only care about gameplay.

Problem solved, then.
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W. Eric Martin
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The monetary unit in Dominion is coins: copper is worth one coin, silver two, and gold three. Color-coding the metals would introduce more problems than it would solve. What do you do if you introduce another metal into the game? Add a fourth color? And what about a metal beyond that? Or a card that's worth two coins but isn't a silver? Or an action card that grants two coins? Or a card that increases or decreases costs?

Using the same symbol for money, with a number superimposed on it to indicate value, provides a consistent approach that can be used no matter how many expansions and what specific cards might eventually be published.
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Trey Chambers
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cbs42 wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
I only care about gameplay.

Problem solved, then.


I was referring to videogames at that part of the post. Re-read it if necessary. =D
 
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Sheamus Parkes
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Henry Rhombus wrote:
Color-coding the metals would introduce more problems than it would solve.


I don't think I buy this based on your statement alone.

If you're saying, "But we'd have to color code the +2 on the Militia" I really don't think that's where they were going.

You could even just go subtle shades different and still be an improvement.


I'll definitely stick with Race for the Galaxy for usability any day. I agree it's got a nasty learning curve and isn't for everyone, but at least they have the right level of sensible icons for experienced players. Heck, you can't even see the text on a "Militia" when you fan your hand. Bah.
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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Isamoor wrote:

I'll definitely stick with Race for the Galaxy for usability any day. I agree it's got a nasty learning curve and isn't for everyone, but at least they have the right level of sensible icons for experienced players. Heck, you can't even see the text on a "Militia" when you fan your hand. Bah.


...and? Being able to see that text while fanned is not something that would increase the usability of the game.

There is one icon for treasure and you accumulate a total value in it. Really this couldn't be simpler.
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Sheamus Parkes
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apotheos wrote:
Isamoor wrote:

I'll definitely stick with Race for the Galaxy for usability any day. I agree it's got a nasty learning curve and isn't for everyone, but at least they have the right level of sensible icons for experienced players. Heck, you can't even see the text on a "Militia" when you fan your hand. Bah.


...and? Being able to see that text while fanned is not something that would increase the usability of the game.


It would for me. If something like the village just had "+ 2 actions + 1 card" in icons on the left side of the card, the game wouldn't stutter as people cycle through their hand one by one reading each card. They could just fan them and read in the info at a glance.

I realize the experienced players know the abilities by heart and the newbies will read the whole text anyway, but there is definitely a large number of gamers who fall between those extremes.
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Adrian Brooks
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Henry Rhombus wrote:
The monetary unit in Dominion is coins: copper is worth one coin, silver two, and gold three. Color-coding the metals would introduce more problems than it would solve.


Hang on. If simplification were the point, why are they Gold, Silver and Copper in the first place? Why don't we have one, two and three coin cards?



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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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Isamoor wrote:
apotheos wrote:
Isamoor wrote:

I'll definitely stick with Race for the Galaxy for usability any day. I agree it's got a nasty learning curve and isn't for everyone, but at least they have the right level of sensible icons for experienced players. Heck, you can't even see the text on a "Militia" when you fan your hand. Bah.


...and? Being able to see that text while fanned is not something that would increase the usability of the game.


It would for me. If something like the village just had "+ 2 actions + 1 card" in icons on the left side of the card, the game wouldn't stutter as people cycle through their hand one by one reading each card. They could just fan them and read in the info at a glance.

I realize the experienced players know the abilities by heart and the newbies will read the whole text anyway, but there is definitely a large number of gamers who fall between those extremes.


I disagree. I think anyone who has played the game for 15 minutes with a given card will remember the abilities of that card, especially if they've bought it into their dominion.

At least complain about a card that is wordy and less than obvious, like the Mine.

I get that everyone has to have their own pet peeve, but I think pushing it forward as a core issue of game usability is a jumping the gun a bit.
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Myke Madsen
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Even after 200 games, I still occasionally look at my hand and mistake the cost on a treasure for the value. I always catch myself, but I believe it is a design flaw that the cost and spending value on the treasure cards use the same icon.

It's a unique problem to solve -- I certainly haven't run into it in other games -- and I'm not sure if multi-colored coins would make it better or not.

Iconography and graphic design are certainly not Dominion's strengths.
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Matt Smith
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Henry Rhombus wrote:
The monetary unit in Dominion is coins: copper is worth one coin, silver two, and gold three. Color-coding the metals would introduce more problems than it would solve. What do you do if you introduce another metal into the game? Add a fourth color? And what about a metal beyond that? Or a card that's worth two coins but isn't a silver? Or an action card that grants two coins? Or a card that increases or decreases costs?

Using the same symbol for money, with a number superimposed on it to indicate value, provides a consistent approach that can be used no matter how many expansions and what specific cards might eventually be published.

This is a very helpful way of looking at money in Dominion. Recently, when teaching the game to my friend's wife, she asked if the Woodcutter gives you a Silver. Considering the card has the same symbol as is on the Silver card, I thought it a fair newbie question. If I had explained that the money symbols represent "coins", and the number is how many coins you get, then it would have been clearer to her.

A related tip to point out when teaching the game is when a card grants another card, it will reference the card by name. For example, the card that gives you a Silver to put on top of your library. It doesn't have the 2-coin symbol, it specifically says "Silver".
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Nick King
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Henry Rhombus wrote:
The monetary unit in Dominion is coins: copper is worth one coin, silver two, and gold three. Color-coding the metals would introduce more problems than it would solve. What do you do if you introduce another metal into the game? Add a fourth color? And what about a metal beyond that? Or a card that's worth two coins but isn't a silver? Or an action card that grants two coins? Or a card that increases or decreases costs?

Using the same symbol for money, with a number superimposed on it to indicate value, provides a consistent approach that can be used no matter how many expansions and what specific cards might eventually be published.


I think you're way over-thinking this.

Nothing needs to change except the color of the coin on the gold and silver cards. a Silver is essentially 2 copper, and a gold is essentially 3 copper, just like a nickel is 5 pennies and a dime is 10 pennies.

when you see the cost of a card, its a copper coin, as in "this costs the equivalent of 3 copper" whether that is 3 copper coins, a silver and a copper, or a gold with 2 change back.

the reason this is not nearly as confusing as people seem to think it would be, is because this is how money functions in every country that has people that could buy dominion, and has been that way for hundreds of years, if not more. having coins of 3 different values all the same color is counterintuitive.

The real question at hand is; "is this game unplayable as it is?" and the answer is no. The next question is "is it worth the money and effort involved in making such a sweeping change?" to which the answer is probably 'No' again. The main reason for this, is that if they change the colors now, it increases the potential to cause confusion with existing coins being a single color. This would mean they might end up making what looks to be a good change, then introduce the problem of needing to offer the colored coins as an additional purchase to existing owners, who will probably want it free, even if its given out at cost. As it is currently, there's a handful of people annoyed with it enough to make posts about it, but almost none that would use that as a deciding factor for buying the game.

The entire situation really magnifies the big issue of margins being so tight in the game industry. Publishers are dealing with a picky niche group of hobbyists, so putting out a quality product you can make a profit from is a daunting task.


In short, coins being different colors would make more sense to new players, but its a very small hurdle to overcome once played a few times.
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Jim Cote
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I play Dominion on BSW with modified Silver and Gold cards, and it's so much nicer.
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Kirkwb
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http://boardgamegeek.com/article/3212972#3212972
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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ohgeetee wrote:

In short, coins being different colors would make more sense to new players, but its a very small hurdle to overcome once played a few times.


I've not seen anyone have an issue with the treasure cards myself, but I have seen people understand Dominion gameplay in different ways. I try to explain the game clearly in the terms the designer intends, but players don't always stick to that.

For example, I try to push that you play an Action, play some Treasure, and then Buy using whatever Treasure you've accumulated. One player in specific was very fixed on putting out little piles of treasure broken up specifically by the card they wanted to purchase. Indeed, they'd often buy a card for 2 with an action outstanding and then end up playing more Actions/Treasures and getting another buy with which they bough another cheap card.

I pointed out that you can save up all your treasure over the course of that play for a more expensive card, but they insisted they'd gotten what they wanted.

Point of this being, is that I think the Treasure as it is in the box best supports the way the Dominion economy is intended to function. Silver and Gold are flavor words to explain the more powerful money card, there is but one currency and all you have is one total value in it. I think its best exactly the way its printed.

But I see other people here approaching with other experiences/expectations, and I get their point. And just as I tolerated the non-standard play of my friend I think its important to respect that, but lets not sell it as a totally obvious flaw, as I think it is very far from that.
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Robin Ashby
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Repost, since this got borked.

There's 2 very good reasons why it is like it is.
1: Consistent iconography. There is only one "Treasure" icon.

2: Because of 1, you open the possibility to alternate currencies, either a totally different type of resource, like Magic or Favor (think sparkly orbs and little wax seals); Or, to additional "Treasure" that would be hard to give its' own icon. Like Platinum or Diamonds.

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Michael Leuchtenburg
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apotheos wrote:

For example, I try to push that you play an Action, play some Treasure, and then Buy using whatever Treasure you've accumulated. One player in specific was very fixed on putting out little piles of treasure broken up specifically by the card they wanted to purchase. Indeed, they'd often buy a card for 2 with an action outstanding and then end up playing more Actions/Treasures and getting another buy with which they bough another cheap card.

I pointed out that you can save up all your treasure over the course of that play for a more expensive card, but they insisted they'd gotten what they wanted.


Maybe next time you should point out that they cheated by buying during the action phase.
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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dyfrgi wrote:
apotheos wrote:

For example, I try to push that you play an Action, play some Treasure, and then Buy using whatever Treasure you've accumulated. One player in specific was very fixed on putting out little piles of treasure broken up specifically by the card they wanted to purchase. Indeed, they'd often buy a card for 2 with an action outstanding and then end up playing more Actions/Treasures and getting another buy with which they bough another cheap card.

I pointed out that you can save up all your treasure over the course of that play for a more expensive card, but they insisted they'd gotten what they wanted.


Maybe next time you should point out that they cheated by buying during the action phase.


But it doesn't matter, does it.
 
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Corin A. Friesen
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Shampoo4you wrote:
I only care about gameplay.

That being said, why do all 3 coins look like copper? It's a common sense change, but the folks at Rio don't think it's a big deal.

That's caring about looks, not gameplay. It's a common sense change of view, but you don't seem to think it's a big deal.
 
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Brandon
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The easiest answer would be color coded treasures in one of the "expansions". That way, you can play with whatever set you/your group prefers.

Everyone wins.
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B C Z
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apotheos wrote:
dyfrgi wrote:
apotheos wrote:

For example, I try to push that you play an Action, play some Treasure, and then Buy using whatever Treasure you've accumulated. One player in specific was very fixed on putting out little piles of treasure broken up specifically by the card they wanted to purchase. Indeed, they'd often buy a card for 2 with an action outstanding and then end up playing more Actions/Treasures and getting another buy with which they bough another cheap card.

I pointed out that you can save up all your treasure over the course of that play for a more expensive card, but they insisted they'd gotten what they wanted.


Maybe next time you should point out that they cheated by buying during the action phase.


But it doesn't matter, does it.


Yes it does, especially if those purchased cards land in the discard and are then reshuffled as potential draws the same turn they were purchased.

That's one reason the black market is so powerful - it's possible with enough manipulation to end up with a newly purchased card be available THIS TURN.

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Nick Short
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Ambrose wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
I only care about gameplay.

That being said, why do all 3 coins look like copper? It's a common sense change, but the folks at Rio don't think it's a big deal.

That's caring about looks, not gameplay. It's a common sense change of view, but you don't seem to think it's a big deal.
It would look better with different pictures for the treasures. No one objects to the action cards having different pictures, what harm is there in giving the treasures different looks. This is not confusing:
Plus, the treasures still have a gold border (and the word "treasure") to distinguish them as treasures even at a glance. It just makes the game look a little better, which is rarely a bad thing.
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Myke Madsen
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ekted wrote:
I play Dominion on BSW with modified Silver and Gold cards, and it's so much nicer.


Would you mind sending me your modified image files? I'd like to give that a shot.
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Chris Schenck
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Shampoo4you wrote:
cbs42 wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
I only care about gameplay.

Problem solved, then.


I was referring to videogames at that part of the post. Re-read it if necessary. =D

Yes, I know you were.


I guess I don't understand why you're treating them differently. If anything, with the modern A-list video game budget in the multi-millions of dollars, I would expect that most folks would build up more of an expectation of graphical quality for video games over board games.
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