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Subject: Last Card of the Hand is a King... Who Gets It? rss

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Sheamus Parkes
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If the hand ends immediately when the third player runs out of cards... who gets the cards from that trick?

I really read the rules a few times in a few places and couldn't see an answer to that...
 
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Marco Marandola
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We play that it's the person who just played since the game end the last player as to give is remaning cards to the other team.
 
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Sheamus Parkes
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Ah, but if the last player could win it and their partner was who went out first, I'd feel a little cheated.
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Brett Porter
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Isamoor wrote:
Ah, but if the last player could win it and their partner was who went out first, I'd feel a little cheated.


Tichu cares not about your feelings.
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Sheamus Parkes
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gokiburijin wrote:
Isamoor wrote:
Ah, but if the last player could win it and their partner was who went out first, I'd feel a little cheated.


Tichu cares not about your feelings.


Ah, but I'd rather care about an answer. Thus far I've got an "We play..." and a "Tichu's apathetic..."
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Matthew M
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The player who went out third gets the cards from the last "trick".

Last player's won cards go to whomever went out first.

Last player's cards in hand always go to the opponents, regardless of who went out first.


-MMM
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David Fair
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Isamoor wrote:
If the hand ends immediately when the third player runs out of cards... who gets the cards from that trick?

The last player to play on that trick wins it. No one else has played higher than he has (or indeed, can, because the hand is over immediately), so no one else deserves it.

The cards left in the 4th players hand go to their opponents, and their collected tricks go to the player that went out first.
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Sheamus Parkes
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Thanks for the answers guys. Just out of curiosity, where the heck was that written in the rules? I looked through a few different versions and couldn't see it anywhere
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David desJardins
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Play ends immediately when the third player empties his hand. Then you resolve the current trick according to the normal rules---last player wins it, give it away if the last play is the dragon.

There are lots of things that could be explained slightly better in the rules, I don't think this is especially unclear though.
 
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David desJardins
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Isamoor wrote:
Ah, but if the last player could win it and their partner was who went out first, I'd feel a little cheated.


The rules do clearly state that play ends when the third player goes out. Maybe the fourth player would have been able to win the trick if play had continued. But since play doesn't continue, I don't see how he can possibly assert any claim to take the trick. He would have to play some more cards to take the trick, and you can't play any cards after play ends, by definition.
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Aaron Fuegi
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Isamoor wrote:
Thanks for the answers guys. Just out of curiosity, where the heck was that written in the rules? I looked through a few different versions and couldn't see it anywhere


The rules version I maintain is I think quite clear on this. From http://scv.bu.edu/~aarondf/Games/Tichu/Tichu.html

Quote:
The game is played until three of the four players have played all of their cards. The final play of the third player to go out automatically wins and he collects this final trick (unless of course he played the Dragon).
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Sheamus Parkes
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Heh, people are defensive when I say a player could feel "cheated" aren't they?

You're all saying it's in the rules, but I really don't see it.

Sure, play ends immediately.

But you don't win a trick until everyone passes.

How can they pass if play is ended?


In fairness, I do indeed play it the same way you guys describe it, but it annoys me that the current rules don't actually address or answer what happens to that last trick.
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Sheamus Parkes
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aarondf@bu.edu wrote:
Isamoor wrote:
Thanks for the answers guys. Just out of curiosity, where the heck was that written in the rules? I looked through a few different versions and couldn't see it anywhere


The rules version I maintain is I think quite clear on this. From http://scv.bu.edu/~aarondf/Games/Tichu/Tichu.html

Quote:
The game is played until three of the four players have played all of their cards. The final play of the third player to go out automatically wins and he collects this final trick (unless of course he played the Dragon).


Ah, there we go! Thank you very much dear sir.
 
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David desJardins
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Isamoor wrote:
In fairness, I do indeed play it the same way you guys describe it, but it annoys me that the current rules don't actually address or answer what happens to that last trick.


Sure. But there are other lacunae in the rules also. The question is, what other answer could you possibly give? I think it's clear that "the third player gets the trick, unless the fourth player has a higher combination that he could have subsequently played to take the trick if he were allowed to keep playing" is not a reasonable answer.
 
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Steve Fitchett
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I don't understand how someone can defend "Could have" won logic. yeah if the king was played earlier in the hand they could have won it then also. Did they, NO! The hand is over, there is no more playing the current leader wins the trick and follows winning a trick convention.
 
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Sheamus Parkes
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surfitch wrote:
The hand is over, there is no more playing the current leader wins the trick and follows winning a trick convention.


Yea, but "winning a trick convention" is for 3 people to pass. They didn't pass, so how can you be sure you won it?

Edit: Also, I think of Knizia's Escalation. That one has a much more reasonable "Last trick stays in the middle" rule. But alas, that would destroy the 100-multiple check sum in Tichu.
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Marco Marandola
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Well at that point 3 people can't pass if there's only two player left.
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David desJardins
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Isamoor wrote:
Yea, but "winning a trick convention" is for 3 people to pass. They didn't pass, so how can you be sure you won it?


As I keep saying, it's because there's no other reasonable alternative. Figuring out who would have won the trick if play had continued is obviously not reasonable. Assigning the trick to no one is not reasonable in this game, as you say. What else is there, seriously? I keep asking you this question and you keep not answering.
 
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J. Romano
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Isamoor wrote:
If the hand ends immediately when the third player runs out of cards... who gets the cards from that trick?

I really read the rules a few times in a few places and couldn't see an answer to that...

This exact question came up with a group of friends recently and, like you, we couldn't find where it was specified in the rules.

We decided that when the third player goes out that nobody gets the cards. Because of this, all the points won that round won't necessarily total 100.

(It was tempting to say that the third player out gets the cards, but it didn't seem right considering nobody passed -- the rules just say that the round ends immediately. So we decided that it ends even before anyone can claim the cards.)

From reading this thread, I know I'm in the minority on this issue. But it's the best my group of players could come up with, strictly following the packaged rules.
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Aaron Fuegi
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Fantomius wrote:
Isamoor wrote:
If the hand ends immediately when the third player runs out of cards... who gets the cards from that trick?

I really read the rules a few times in a few places and couldn't see an answer to that...

This exact question came up with a group of friends recently and, like you, we couldn't find where it was specified in the rules.

We decided that when the third player goes out that nobody gets the cards. Because of this, all the points won that round won't necessarily total 100.

(It was tempting to say that the third player out gets the cards, but it didn't seem right considering nobody passed -- the rules just say that the round ends immediately. So we decided that it ends even before anyone can claim the cards.)

From reading this thread, I know I'm in the minority on this issue. But it's the best my group of players could come up with, strictly following the packaged rules.


My version of the rules at http://scv.bu.edu/~aarondf/Games/Tichu/Tichu.html specifically addresses this:

Quote:
Points Reckoning Up

The game is played until three of the four players have played all of their cards. The final play of the third player to go out automatically wins and he collects this final trick (unless of course he played the Dragon).
 
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Jeff Chunko
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Think of it this way:

Anyone who goes out gets their tricks.
The person who went out first gets the tricks of the person who didn't.
The team that goes out first gets all "unplayed" cards, including the last, incomplete trick.

The last card is always won by the team that goes out - so it works out exactly right.
 
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J. Romano
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aarondf@bu.edu wrote:
My version of the rules at http://scv.bu.edu/~aarondf/Games/Tichu/Tichu.html specifically addresses this

I saw that, but only after I was playing with friends. We tried to adhere to the game's included rules as best as we logically could, and concluded that no-one took the cards in the unfinished trick.

Jeff Chunko wrote:
The team that goes out first gets all "unplayed" cards, including the last, incomplete trick.

That makes some sense, but the team that goes out first is not necessarily the team that goes out third. So by that logic, that last, incomplete trick may end up scoring for the player who didn't go out, even if he couldn't play on it.

I suppose a house-rule could be to allow the fourth player to play on it if it can be done, and then end the round. The rules seem to forbid this, though (as they say that the round ends immediately when the third player goes out), but I suppose you could make the case that "immediately" is a bit ambiguous, as some interpretations take "immediately" to mean that the last trick isn't even finished or scored (whereas some interpretations don't take "immediately" as that immediate).
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David desJardins
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Fantomius wrote:
I saw that, but only after I was playing with friends. We tried to adhere to the game's included rules as best as we logically could, and concluded that no-one took the cards in the unfinished trick.


That's fine, but it is history now. There's no question what the actual rules are, i.e., how the designer actually intended the game to be played and how it's played by the thousands of people already playing the game. My suggestion would that you just play that same way and not agonize over whether or not it's adequately supported by the not-so-great translation provided with the English publication.
 
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Jeff Chunko
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Fantomius wrote:
Jeff Chunko wrote:
The team that goes out first gets all "unplayed" cards, including the last, incomplete trick.

That makes some sense, but the team that goes out first is not necessarily the team that goes out third. So by that logic, that last, incomplete trick may end up scoring for the player who didn't go out, even if he couldn't play on it.


Actually it does work. There are 3 possiblities:
Partners AB vs CD. D always goes out last.

A goes out first, B goes out second. They get all points
A goes out first, B goes out third. AB get all unplayed cards as well as all of D's tricks.
C goes out first, AB goes out 23. AB get all unplayed cards.

So the team that goes out third always earns the unplayed cards.
 
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David desJardins
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Jeff Chunko wrote:
The team that goes out first gets all "unplayed" cards, including the last, incomplete trick.


This is wrong. The team that goes out first doesn't get the unplayed cards, those always go to the opponents of the last player.

It also wouldn't give the right result if you treated the last trick as "unplayed", because you get a different result when the third player's last card is the dragon.
 
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