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Subject: "Player must always have at least one race token [for] a new Conquest." rss

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Under "Conquering a Region":
"Regardless of a Race and/or Special Power benefit, a player must always have at least one Race token available to initiate a new Conquest."

Under "Final Conquest Attempt"
"Provided he still has at least one unused Race token [a player can make a Final Conquest Attempt]."

I just want to make sure I'm playing this right: You can only do a "regular" conquest using all the Race tokens in your hand minus one. So if you have three tokens, but every available Conquest would require three, you have to go to the Final Conquest. The only odd thing is that in our first playthrough tonight the Final Conquest was often perfunctory as it was truly just a regular Conquest that required all tokens in hand (but no reinforcements)--thus leaving the player with zero tokens in hand and leading into troop redeployment.

Are we playing this right?
 
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If you last conquest uses all your tokens, there won't be another one after that just using the die.

You are correct in that your final conquest could end up being a regular conquest without use of the die.
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My hesitation is that this final "dice-based" conquest appears to often not be dice based at all (as in the example I gave where you have exactly the amount of units you need), but must still apparently take place in a sort of artificial "Final Conquest Attempt" phase even where Conquest is guaranteed but not allowed previously under the first rule cited above. Makes me suspect I may be misinterpreting something. I do understand though that I could simply deploy my leftovers into any of my existing regions instead of further expanding.

EDIT: Thanks Walt, this is what I thought. For some reason it just felt somewhat awkward to me, possibly because by chance it was happening to us constantly.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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Indeed, it is the preferred way to end your turn most of the time. The die is just a sop to avoid game slowdown that would result if 'remainder' armies were worthless. People would avoid at all costs to have 'remainders', and spend a long time crunching the numbers. The die just gives you a shot with your remainder. Not using it is a good thing, especially in 'big' battles.
 
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Mik Svellov
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"Reinforcements" are just that. Like in real life they may not make it onto the battlefield in time - and even if they do, they may not make any difference.

In other words: you will often find that you won't need the reinforment die. You may try to work out an attack sequence that would leave you with one token in hand - but most people prefer to take the Regions they know for certain they can take, rather risking not getting that last VP.
 
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Travis Cooper
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Although you are playing it right, I wouldn't consider this instance to be a final conquest. If you use up your tokens exactly, then your turn just ends. The final conquest rule is in place for those times you have tokens left over, but can't take over any regions with those tokens. You then enter into this final conquest where you can now roll the die to get reinforcements to fight with your left over tokens. The whole point to the rules you quoted is that I can't use up all my tokens, and still try to use the reinforcement die to gain another region, because I don't have a token left to place there if I win.

I really just see this as two different situations. One where your turn ends when using all your tokens, the other where you have some left over and you roll the die to try and take over one last region.

EDIT: The first rule you quoted under conquering is mostly for those people with special abilities. For example, of you had mounted tritons, they would need one less token for regions adjacent to water, and one less token for hills or farmlands. If there is an empty hill next to water the abilities would say it takes 0 tokens to conquer that region. So this rule is just saying that you have to place at least one token in this instance.
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monkeyboy157 wrote:
EDIT: The first rule you quoted under conquering is mostly for those people with special abilities. For example, of you had mounted tritons, they would need one less token for regions adjacent to water, and one less token for hills or farmlands. If there is an empty hill next to water the abilities would say it takes 0 tokens to conquer that region. So this rule is just saying that you have to place at least one token in this instance.


Ah, good point. I definitely understood this rule just generally since the point comes up at several times throughout the manual (and perhaps on here too), but I never really tied it back to the actual rule I quoted.
 
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Dan
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I was also confused by the wording of the rules. As I understand it, there are two rules here.

1. If you are conquering a region, you must always use at least 1 token even if special abilities and race abilities would "drop you to 0 or fewer required."

2. As the last conquest attempt of your conquest phase, you may attempt to claim one last area on the board even if you have too few tokens. If you have too few tokens, roll the dice and add this amount to the tokens you have. This sum counts as the number of tokens you are using to claim that last area. If the sum is sufficient, you capture the area, if not, you may place to tokens on other areas you control instead.

The confusion is in the first quote above. Because of the wording, it sounds like the game requires you to always hold on to this last token except when attempting this "final conquest." In that interpretation (which is wrong), if you had 3 tokens, and needed 3 tokens to capture the space you wanted, you would not be allowed since you were required to hold on to the last one. As AstroLad (and I) thought, this would mean you were forced (for some silly reason) to roll the die even when it would not affect the outcome.

Thanks for clarifying the rules !
 
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Danny Mack
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Hopefully you have resolved your confusion here in the forums by now.

Point #1 is the rule for standard conquest. It is no statement on how you must leave your military disposition at the end of your turn, nor is it any charge to mandatory use of the reinforcement die. (Context is important; pay attention to which section of the rules a statement appears.)

I'm gathering from your post that you know this, but I must say I don't see how any reading of the words that are in Point #1 in any way bring up the topic or confusion of requiring you to hold on to a token. I think the confusion is/was not in the statement but rather in you, and whatever idea got you spun around, I'm glad you've been able to get to the other side of your confusion. Perhaps in the future it may help you to look for the words "may" and "must" in rule explanations. The former means the player has a choice; the latter means the player is forced to something.

You may use the reinforcement die on your last conquest, if you come up short of the RTs necessary to conquer the target region.
You must always use at least 1 token when conquering a region.

IMO, the wording in Point #1 and Point #2 is succinct, clear, and non-contradictory. Well said.
 
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Dan
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bandit_boy7,

I'm not really getting at what you're saying and I'm not trying to have an argument.

AstroLad and I were confused by these rules and this thread helped us both to understand them. I personally think my wording in my previous reply is much clearer than the game's wording.

Take these as examples,

Game Rulebook:
Quote:
Regardless of a Race and/or Special Power benefit, a player must always have at least one Race token available to initiate a new Conquest.


My Wording:
Quote:
If you are conquering a region, you must always use at least 1 token even if special abilities and race abilities would "drop you to 0 or fewer required."


The part that says "a play must always have at least one Race token available to initiate a new Conquest." is ambiguous. I read this as meaning that "at all times, the player must have 1 token that is not played on the board so that they could initiate a conquest with this token." In fact, "to" in this sentence means "to use if they want to."

Writing rules is a nightmare and I don't fault the game company for having a few confusing parts of the rule book. Having an online resource which is up to date, easily accessible, and where the game designers themselves can participate is a wonderful resource.

Thanks BGG!
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Danny Mack
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To be clear, my tone (which I realize is not visible on-screen) was congratulatory, not argumentative. As I said, I think your wording for both points is spot-on, and I'm glad this thread (and this resource, BGG) helped you to work through your misinterpretation of the rules as published.

[EDIT: And I was adding my word of advice to anyone else who may happen upon this thread to always pay attention to which section of the rules they are in, as well as those key words "may" and "must."]

I'm not sure how else to say it, but I didn't want to leave it murky or seem to be combative. (I save the combat & murky intentions for Small World!) I'm happy you are able to ascertain the spirit of the rules and get on with enjoying the game--that's what it's all about! (Well, that and the hokey-pokey...)
 
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I sold this game two years ago -- leave me out of this! :p
 
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Danny Mack
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I suppose that's why it's considered somewhat "bad form" on BGG to resurrect old threads for new conversation.

But wow, sorry for your loss.
 
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bandit_boy7 wrote:
I suppose that's why it's considered somewhat "bad form" on BGG to resurrect old threads for new conversation.

But wow, sorry for your loss.

Ha! No the resurrection doesn't bother me at all -- I actually do it myself a fair amount when I have a question on the exact same topic. As for the game, nothing against the game itself just wasn't quite to my group's tastes so it was languishing on the shelf more than any game should.
 
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Dan
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No hard feelings. As you may have seen, I've only recently started to leave comments at BGG, so I'm not too familiar with any of the faces or conventions.

Thanks also for your contributions to the Small World board through design, feedback, and participation.

I just printed (after redoing much of the art) two unofficial races to use in my games, Gargoyles and Necromancers. In doing that I've gone through a lot of the BGG pages around Small World including many of yours Danny.
 
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Danny Mack
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Personally I'd much rather users (especially new ones) dig around in the existing forums--even if they are old & inactive--rather than start new redundant ones.

Thanks for the kind words--you guys can hit me up anytime! Thanks for getting involved in the community.
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