David Short
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I really love Hive and so naturally I'm drawn to any of Yianni's designs. I haven't played either Army of Frogs or Logan Stones, but am doing as much research as possible until I get the opportunity to actually play them.

Logan Stones looks to be the stronger of the two submissions. By stronger, I mean of similar weight and demographic as Hive. It appears to have lots of great decisions and tough competitiveness.

My main concern is the introduction of chance into what seems to be otherwise a very appealing set of abstract mechanics. The chance I am speaking of is of course the flipping of stones. I have no problem with a memory game. In fact I enjoy memory games, but this game clearly prohibits knowing the underside of all the stones. Even if you have the plus of knowing the underside of your 8 pulled stones at the beginning of the game, you don't know the two starting stones nor do you know the identity of the symbol of the underside of your opponents' stones. It's hard to memorize something you don't know.

I love deep abstracts with perfect information. I also can enjoy a little chance when it doesn't hinder my plans too greatly.

My questions are simple: Does the chance in this game create a huge negative that a person like me should shy away from? Does it disrupt and dilute the strategy in the game? Does it hand wins to opponents who should otherwise be losing?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
CanCon, BunnyCon...BorderCon!!!
Australia
KILLARA
VIC
flag msg tools
badge
May 2018 be all you dreamed it would be and be all that you dreamed...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The simple answer is that it all depends on a gamer's personal tastes.

Anyone like yourself that loves perfect information is more likely to find that element of doubt (unknowing) as a negative.

Anyone like me that finds perfect information games problematic because a victory is likely to come down to experience and skill level, will likely find a game like Logan Stones far more accessible.

Of course if you have a brilliant memory then Logan Stones may still feel more akin to perfect information...but by jove it would have to be a damn fine memory.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
To me, the potentially problematic issue not so much chance, but memory. Chance can be minimized or controlled in Logan Stones. The initial random distribution of stones seems unimportant to me in terms of play balance, in the same sense as in Caylus, Hey! That's My Fish!, TZAAR, etc. The only difference is that in Logan Stones of course you don't know what the initial distribution is. But in the early game, you can safely place stones to flip stones placed by the opponent and thus get useful info about what's been played. But, and it's a bigger "but" than it sounds like, you need to remember that information.

People who automatically make a house rule that publicly seen information in a game that is hidden according to the rules is visible under the house rule will miss the point of Logan Stones.

Normally I dislike game rules that require memory. But of course remembering what you've seen is sort of the main point of Logan Stones, and if you take it in that spirit, it's fun, mind-stretching, and humbling.

If you want to play well, you really need to focus and exercise a different part of your brain than you normally exercise when playing games (at least if you play the same sorts of games I play...) I think "Come on, how hard can it be to remember what's on the other side of a dozen stones?" Apparently pretty hard, at least for me! But I don't find it irritating; I find it an interesting change of pace. I experiment with different mnemonic tricks to try to remember, or with simply brute-forcing it. And it's especially amusing if you play after a glass or more of your favorite alcohol, as we did when playing last night (inspired by reading Neil's recent review). It's rather fascinating to see objective evidence of just how amusingly crappy your memory can be after a glass of wine.

So, short answer to your question: if you only like combinatorial games like Hive, you won't like Logan Stones. But if you merely prefer such games and are open to other types of games, you might like Logan Stones.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
CanCon, BunnyCon...BorderCon!!!
Australia
KILLARA
VIC
flag msg tools
badge
May 2018 be all you dreamed it would be and be all that you dreamed...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
russ wrote:
And it's especially amusing if you play after a glass or more of your favorite alcohol, as we did when playing last night (inspired by reading Neil's recent review). It's rather fascinating to see objective evidence of just how amusingly crappy your memory can be after a glass of wine.


I'm inspiring the Polish to drink while they play games...my power has no limits!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Perhaps I was too ambiguous... reading about Logan Stones only inspired me to play it, not to drink!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Yianni
United Kingdom
Potters Bar
Hertfordshire
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi David
It's not that hard to eliminating some of the chance element, if you want to.
There are only 18 stones: 12 of each symbol
2 of each with the same symbol on each side (scissors-scissors, paper-paper and rock-rock) I call these stones solid.
4 of each of the other combinations
(scissors-paper, scissors-rock and paper-rock)

So if I want to take the game to higher level I may try and work out what my opponent has in his hand, by what I have in mine. (you may look at both sides of your own stones and use what ever side you like)

For instance; if I have one solid paper in my hand and the starting stones are showing a rock and a scissors, it only take a second to realise that one of my opponents visible paper, is also solid.
I may be holding, say another 7 paper, if that's the case then I know that my opponent has only one other paper, giving me a paper advantage. So I'm more likely to focus on grouping my paper and bringing out some rock trying to entice my opponent to bring out his limited paper.
If I'm very good I can even work out within the first two or so turns what my opponent is holding in his entire hand, But I personally don't play that way, I rather like play using a combination of bluff, risk and a bit of memory and a small bit working out of my opponents stones. But as you can see there is a way of eliminating most of the chance element of the game, if you so wish.
I also like to arrange my hand in such a way that I don't ever have to look to see what I have beneath, as I can tell by the arrangement what they are.
I think people will find the best combination of tactics that suit them to play this game, and not everyone will play the same way.
Hope you get a chance to try it.
John

7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Short
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks everyone. I can't wait to give this a try. Sounds like the chance is mediated well and that I will enjoy this.

I'm looking forward to trying it out.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BTW, is it just me, or does this thread's subject make anyone else think there's a game with the title "Love Hive"? Sounds rather risque!

(Now I have the B52's song "Love Shack" in my head...)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Blue Mountain
Australia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
The chance aspect ruined the game for me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
...
Bang bang bang on the hive, baby! Knock a little louder, baby!
Bang bang bang on the hive, baby! I can't hear you
Your what? Queen bee, busted!
Love Hive, baby, Love Hive!
Love, baby, that's where it's at
Huggin' and a kissin', dancin' and a lovin' at the Love Hive...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bob Kohut
United States
military/mobile
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
BlueMountain wrote:
The chance aspect ruined the game for me.

Has anyone played the game like Richard Morris' Rock-Paper-Scissors where you know what symbol is on the reverse side? Put a little color dot, or a R-P-S on the stone to indicate what's on the other side? Would that work? I'll give it a try.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.