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Subject: INF vs. ART combat (Assault Step 6) rss

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Micha Snijder
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Hi,

I received my copy today and just finished reading the rules. The game mechanics look very promising. Tomorrow will be my first game, so I'd like to get something clear before playing.

First though, I'd like to say that it wasn't the best of ideas to use a single adjective to describe two concepts. Yes, I'm referring to "defending".

The question:

Let me use an example. One INF and one CAV assault one single ART. The steps:

Step 1: defending ART fire. Let's say the ART hits and does one block of damage.

Step 2 through 4: Not Applicable

Step 5: Not Applicable due to: "If any defending artillery units are left in an area that only contains enemy cavalry then..."

Step 6: This step has two paragraphs. Part of my question is in what order to execute the paragraphs. I'm assuming first paragraph 1 then paragraph 2, since the reverse would cause some really funky rules issues, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, paragraph 1 eliminates the ART and paragraph 2 then makes the INF make a morale check since he was hit in step 1.

Step 7: The CAV checks for control.


Does this mean:

- Assaulting with a single INF with damage 3 or lower will guarantee the elimination of a lone defending ART?

- Assaulting with a single non-tired CAV will guarantee the elimination of a lone defending ART?

- Assaulting with 1 INF and 1 CAV will guarantee the elimination of a lone defending ART?

- If assaulting a lone ART with only INF, it is possible that the area will remain empty after the assault? Reason: due to elimination of the ART and all assaulting INF failing their morale check after been hit in step 1.

- If one INF with 4 or 5 damage cubes assaults one ART, it is possible that the ART will survive the assault if he scores a hit (or two) in step 1?
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christian lecuyot
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I think that if you are right about the order of the step 6, all the answers to your questions are "Yes" except about the cavalry assaulting alone. You always need at least one infantry unit to eliminate an artillery unit, a cavalry cant do this alone, its written somewhere in the rules.

But i truely think there is a mistake in this rule and the order of step 6 should be reversed. The infantry should check his morale first or all the strange things You said would be true and it doesnt sound right for me. So for now i played reversing this order and till now it worked well (i had time to only played one turn till now though as i just got the game).
 
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Mike Wall
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"Assaulting with a single INF with damage 3 or lower will guarantee the elimination of a lone defending ART?"

Yes

"Assaulting with a single non-tired CAV will guarantee the elimination of a lone defending ART?"

No. The artillery will have a hit cube placed with it to show the crew has been driven off and the artillery and cavalry will remain in the area together.

"Assaulting with 1 INF and 1 CAV will guarantee the elimination of a lone defending ART?"

Not necessarily. If the artillery scores enough hits in Assault Step 1 to eliminate the infantry unit then, it will survive.

"If assaulting a lone ART with only INF, it is possible that the area will remain empty after the assault? Reason: due to elimination of the ART and all assaulting INF failing their morale check after been hit in step 1."

Yes.

"If one INF with 4 or 5 damage cubes assaults one ART, it is possible that the ART will survive the assault if he scores a hit (or two) in step 1?"

Yes.

Yes
 
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christian lecuyot
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Scared Bunny wrote:
Step 6: This step has two paragraphs. Part of my question is in what order to execute the paragraphs. I'm assuming first paragraph 1 then paragraph 2, since the reverse would cause some really funky rules issues, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, paragraph 1 eliminates the ART and paragraph 2 then makes the INF make a morale check since he was hit in step 1.

Seriously it looks for me like this rule is in the wrong order. The morale of the infantery should be checked first. Thats the logical order for me. And only after, if the infantery survived and still is in the area, the artillery should be eliminated. The other way to do it doesnt make sense for me, but perhaps i am missing something.
 
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Martin Wallace
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The assaulting infantry unit still has to pass a morale check in the Inf vs Inf phase. If you read it carefully it states that hits score during the initial artillery phase will result in morale checks. Thus any infantry unit attacking an artillery unit has the possibility of failing due to a poor morale check roll.

Hope that is clear.

Martin
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christian lecuyot
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Frog1 wrote:
The assaulting infantry unit still has to pass a morale check in the Inf vs Inf phase. If you read it carefully it states that hits score during the initial artillery phase will result in morale checks. Thus any infantry unit attacking an artillery unit has the possibility of failing due to a poor morale check roll.

Hope that is clear.

Martin

Hello Martin,

In the case detailled here, there is no infantery defending with the artillery, but the artillery is alone and assaulted by the enemy infantery. So the Inf vs Inf phase does'nt apply.

Looks like you made a great game again anyway .
 
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Ian Milnes
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It looks like you apply all phases to the best of your ability, ie, you go through the inf vs inf phase and do all applicable parts. In this case, the only applicable bit is the "moral check if hit by artillery in the first phase" bit.

The statment in the rules that "in most cases a number of steps will not apply and can be skipped" would appear to be not entirely accurate.

Look at the summary pages. In the artillery phase it states "hits scored in this step will force a moral check in step three."

That's the beauty of this website. Not only are you helped by the collective musings of enthusiasts and players, but the game designers as well!



regards

Ian
 
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Micha Snijder
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Toffeeman wrote:
It looks like you apply all phases to the best of your ability, ie, you go through the inf vs inf phase and do all applicable parts.


That doesn't seem right as the INF vs. ART step states:

Quote:
If the defending artillery units were not accompanied by any infantry or cavalry then all assaulting infantry units should make a morale check if they suffered any hits when the artillery fired defensively.


LoganTT wrote:
Seriously it looks for me like this rule is in the wrong order. The morale of the infantery should be checked first.


That's what I was kind of thinking and why I asked this question in the first place, but then I realised that doing it the other way around would cause some seriously weird stuff. Since I got my answer, I guess we can go off-topic. Let's say that in my example in the OP the INF fails its morale check and that thereby the ART is not eliminated (doing paragraph 2, then 1), then that would leave the ART and the enemy CAV in the save space. Let's say the CAV then rolls for control and fails, then the assault ends with an ART and a CAV of opposing sides in the same area. Remember, CAV attacks ART before INF, and only if there is no INF. That's pretty funky, but it gets funkier when you consider that "defending units" is defined as units that where in the area when it was assaulted. That would make the "defending units" a mixed Allied/French group. So yes, I think we can conclude that it's paragraph 1, then 2.

Thanks for all the responses. And my bad for forgetting that CAV can't eliminate ART on its own.
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christian lecuyot
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Toffeeman wrote:
It looks like you apply all phases to the best of your ability, ie, you go through the inf vs inf phase and do all applicable parts. In this case, the only applicable bit is the "moral check if hit by artillery in the first phase" bit.

The statment in the rules that "in most cases a number of steps will not apply and can be skipped" would appear to be not entirely accurate.

For me the rule states very clearly that "in most cases a number of steps will not apply and can be skipped". and i think it better be like this because You dont want to check every damn word of a case if You dont have this case in your assault. Assault procedure is complex enough like this. For now i have the feelling that something is wrong in this procédure when it comes about checking morale of an infantry unit.
 
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christian lecuyot
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Scared Bunny wrote:
LoganTT wrote:
Seriously it looks for me like this rule is in the wrong order. The morale of the infantery should be checked first.


That's what I was kind of thinking and why I asked this question in the first place, but then I realised that doing it the other way around would cause some seriously weird stuff. Since I got my answer, I guess we can go off-topic. Let's say that in my example in the OP the INF fails its morale check and that thereby the ART is not eliminated (doing paragraph 2, then 1), then that would leave the ART and the enemy CAV in the save space. Let's say the CAV then rolls for control and fails, then the assault ends with an ART and a CAV of opposing sides in the same area. Remember, CAV attacks ART before INF, and only if there is no INF. That's pretty funky, but it gets funkier when you consider that "defending units" is defined as units that where in the area when it was assaulted. That would make the "defending units" a mixed Allied/French group. So yes, I think we can conclude that it's paragraph 1, then 2.

Thanks for all the responses. And my bad for forgetting that CAV can't eliminate ART on its own.

For me the answer is still not clear and i still believe You have to check the morale of the infantry first. Yes it could happens then that a cavalry unit stays with the artillery at the end of the assault. But i see nothing wrong in this. If another unit assault this area, the only defending unit will be the one of the other side.
 
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Ian Milnes
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Stepping through the phases (as per the summary):
Step 1: Defending Art fires. One damage block is given to the Inf.
NOTE: hits scored in this step will force a morale check in Step 3.

Step 2: Cav vs Cav. No action

Step 3: Inf vs Inf. No action. Except morale check must be taken as per above.

Step 4: Cav vs Inf. No action.

Step 5: Cav vs Art. Art receives damage cube.

Step 6: Inf vs Art. If the Inf did not retreat, then Art eliminated (as only Art in area at start of assault) and Inf must take morale check. If Inf retreated in Step 3, no action.

Step 7: Cav Control.

Therefore, the Inf would need to take 2 morale checks - once in Step 3, once in Step 6.
The situation were enemy Cav and unmanned Art are in the same area occurs.

regards

Ian
 
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christian lecuyot
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Toffeeman wrote:
Stepping through the phases (as per the summary):
Step 1: Defending Art fires. One damage block is given to the Inf.
NOTE: hits scored in this step will force a morale check in Step 3.

Step 2: Cav vs Cav. No action

Step 3: Inf vs Inf. No action. Except morale check must be taken as per above.

Step 4: Cav vs Inf. No action.

Step 5: Cav vs Art. Art receives damage cube.

Step 6: Inf vs Art. If the Inf did not retreat, then Art eliminated (as only Art in area at start of assault) and Inf must take morale check. If Inf retreated in Step 3, no action.

Step 7: Cav Control.

Therefore, the Inf would need to take 2 morale checks - once in Step 3, once in Step 6.
The situation were enemy Cav and unmanned Art are in the same area occurs.

regards

Ian

Although i dont think its a good thing to do actions in a phase wich shouldnt be used (Step 3 shouldnt be used in this case as there are no inf vs inf in the assault), your vision of the rules as they are written is perfectly acceptable and logical. The other strange thing of this, is the morale checked twice. The way i do it, not using the step 3 for morale, but inverting the order of the 2 actions in step 6 has the advantage to check the morale only once. But i am not sure its the right way to do it either. For me it looks like there is a little bug in this assault routine.

And yes in your vision and in mine, at the end of the assault, enemy Cav and unmanned Art are still in the same area. Can it be a problem later ?...

Interesting analysis you did, thanks.
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Ian Milnes
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I don't think the Cav and unmanned Art in the same area is a problem. For all intents and purposes, the Art piece is meaningless, ie, it cannot effect the game in any way in it's current state.

Step 3 is used because Step 1 says it is. If the Art had not hit the Inf in Step 1, then I agree - Step 3 would not be used.

regards

Ian
 
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Micha Snijder
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Toffeeman wrote:
I don't think the Cav and unmanned Art in the same area is a problem. For all intents and purposes, the Art piece is meaningless, ie, it cannot effect the game in any way in it's current state.

Step 3 is used because Step 1 says it is. If the Art had not hit the Inf in Step 1, then I agree - Step 3 would not be used.

regards

Ian


But explain then why it explicitly states in step 6:

Quote:
If the defending artillery units were not accompanied by any infantry or cavalry then all assaulting infantry units should make a morale check if they suffered any hits when the artillery fired defensively.


If the INF would have taken the morale check in step step 3 in any and all cases according to you, then why would this be even mentioned in step 6?
 
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christian lecuyot
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Scared Bunny wrote:
Toffeeman wrote:
I don't think the Cav and unmanned Art in the same area is a problem. For all intents and purposes, the Art piece is meaningless, ie, it cannot effect the game in any way in it's current state.

Step 3 is used because Step 1 says it is. If the Art had not hit the Inf in Step 1, then I agree - Step 3 would not be used.

regards

Ian


But explain then why it explicitly states in step 6:

Quote:
If the defending artillery units were not accompanied by any infantry or cavalry then all assaulting infantry units should make a morale check if they suffered any hits when the artillery fired defensively.


If the INF would have taken the morale check in step step 3 in any and all cases according to you, then why would this be even mentioned in step 6?

I agree with Micha the scared bunny and for me there is a little bug somewhere in this sequence.
 
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Ian Milnes
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Guys, I'm reading the same rules you are!
I can't explain why the rules say something - I didn't write them!
All I can do is look at them and say "this is when you take a morale check given the example in the first post."

As per the rules:
in the example given, the Inf would take two morale checks. One in Step 3 and one in Step 6.

regards

Ian
 
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christian lecuyot
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Toffeeman wrote:
Guys, I'm reading the same rules you are!
I can't explain why the rules say something - I didn't write them!
All I can do is look at them and say "this is when you take a morale check given the example in the first post."

As per the rules:
in the example given, the Inf would take two morale checks. One in Step 3 and one in Step 6.

regards

Ian

That is not because your vision of the rules as they are written can be correct that there is no bug in them. For me that the infantery has to take 2 morale checks for only one hit makes no sense for the simulation aspect unless i missed something. That could be written in gold in the rule book (wich is far to be the case ) that wouldnt change the fact that i dont understand this logic of 2 morale checks.
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Martin Butcher
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Wouldn't the best solution be to reverse the two parts of step 6, i.e. infantry take a morale test if they suffered any casualties, and then if they are not eliminated or forced to retreat or eliminated, then they remove the opposing artillery?
 
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christian lecuyot
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mcb1962 wrote:
Wouldn't the best solution be to reverse the two parts of step 6, i.e. infantry take a morale test if they suffered any casualties, and then if they are not eliminated or forced to retreat or eliminated, then they remove the opposing artillery?

Yes, that is the right way to do it for me.
 
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I think I am going to house-rule this one. I can't see why a lone ART being assaulted by INF and CAV could force the INF make two morale checks. If the INF passed it in step 3, it shouldn't have to make another check in step 6 after the CAV has slaughtered the ART crew.

Think about it: this INF unit charges with CAV onto an enemy ART unit. The ART fires at short range and inflicts some damage (step 1), but the INF doesn't flinch (assume it makes the first morale check) -- it continues its charge and reaches the ART before it can fire again. The INF sees the CAV slaughter / drive off the ART crews as it reaches the canons. The canons are now unmanned and the CAV is triumphantly reforming after running down the last of the enemy ART crew. While the soldiers destroy the unmanned canons, safe from harm, they recall the canon balls they bravely charged through just minutes ago. And though they are safe now, they run in terror. Even stranger, if the INF was wounded badly enough, the soldiers just drop dead by the unmanned canons with smiles on their faces, knowing that they destroyed the ART unit with their dying breaths.

That doesn't make sense to me.

Any thoughts? I will stick with the original rule if someone explains why the INF in this situation should have to make a second morale check when faced with unmanned canons. Something better than, "That's what the rules say." Even more vexing: Why should this second morale check only be required if the ART unit is unaccompanied by fellow INF or CAV?

This is a fantastic game. The fact that I am obsessing over this tiny detail is evidence of how much fun this game is to think about, let alone play. In fact, the mechanics of this game are so well tied to the theme, I usually envision each and every battle as it unfolds.
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