Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
16 Posts

Unhappy King Charles!» Forums » Rules

Subject: Retreat or Surrender - Parliament Auto-victory rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Paul Norell
New Zealand
AUCKLAND
flag msg tools
mbmb
A little confusion here. My Royalist opponent just lost all his brigades in a battle led by Charles I. As he was technically able to retreat, I believe that the game continues and Charles I goes temporarily to the Unemployed Generals Box.
My generous opponent, however, believes this constitutes a Parliament Auto-Victory.
Which of us is correct?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Vasey
Scotland
Mortlake, London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pnorell wrote:
A little confusion here. My Royalist opponent just lost all his brigades in a battle led by Charles I. As he was technically able to retreat, I believe that the game continues and Charles I goes temporarily to the Unemployed Generals Box.
My generous opponent, however, believes this constitutes a Parliament Auto-Victory.
Which of us is correct?


Looking at 8.2, 10.4, and 14.4 I too think he does not surrender, but I'd be interested to see why your opponent thought he did; just as a check to my reading
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim P.
United States
Thousand Oaks
CA
flag msg tools
Visit the Wargame Bootcamp guild
badge
Muppet !
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's game over.

See 10.4
Quote:

A General also Surrenders if all his Brigades are lost in Battle, unless stacked with a Subordinate who retains at least one Brigade. If King Charles Surrenders the Parliament Player wins an Automatic Victory.



I had it happen to me, once, in an early game. There is a lively THREAD here about dispersing with the King

Also watch out for retreating into an enemy area and losing an extra brigade. The King leading a three brigade army into battle can be vulnerable in the wrong circumstances.



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim P.
United States
Thousand Oaks
CA
flag msg tools
Visit the Wargame Bootcamp guild
badge
Muppet !
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pnorell wrote:
A little confusion here. My Royalist opponent just lost all his brigades in a battle led by Charles I. As he was technically able to retreat, I believe that the game continues and Charles I goes temporarily to the Unemployed Generals Box.
My generous opponent, however, believes this constitutes a Parliament Auto-Victory.
Which of us is correct?


Why do you say he was able to retreat ?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Norell
New Zealand
AUCKLAND
flag msg tools
mbmb
Thanks for the replies. However, everyone keeps quoting the 'surrender' rules at me and my point is (as Mr Vasey has spotted) -

Why does my opponent surrender if there is a retreat option open? In the rules, surrender only applies if there is no legal retreat. In our battle, the Royalists were able to retreat (theoretically anyway, as they actually had no army). A general left without an army goes to the Unemployed Generals Box.

So, to return to my original question - Is it game over? And if so, why?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Norell
New Zealand
AUCKLAND
flag msg tools
mbmb
Mea Culpa! Mea Maxima Culpa! I see the source of my error. I was looking at the older version of the rulebook and have just seen the updated version with the modified surrender rules.

My apologies for wasting everyone's time. Teach me to use the latest edition of the rulebook. Thanks again
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Doug Adams
Australia
Oakleigh
Victoria
flag msg tools
badge
Polynesia
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Is there an updated rulebook?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Norell
New Zealand
AUCKLAND
flag msg tools
mbmb
Hi Doug,
The 'updated' rulebook is the one that comes with the game. I was still using the older version downloaded from GMT during the playtesting. Hence the confusion. Don't ask me why I didn't use the 'updated' vesrion. Duh!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Vasey
Scotland
Mortlake, London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
oi_you_nutter wrote:
It's game over.

See 10.4
Quote:

A General also Surrenders if all his Brigades are lost in Battle, unless stacked with a Subordinate who retains at least one Brigade. If King Charles Surrenders the Parliament Player wins an Automatic Victory.



I had it happen to me, once, in an early game. There is a lively THREAD here about dispersing with the King

Also watch out for retreating into an enemy area and losing an extra brigade. The King leading a three brigade army into battle can be vulnerable in the wrong circumstances.





Yes, you're right. I hadn't read on to the second paragraph. However, the reference to Surrendering is to losing all one's brigades in Battle not in Battle and during the Retreat. I would read that strictly unless there's a catch-all rule.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim P.
United States
Thousand Oaks
CA
flag msg tools
Visit the Wargame Bootcamp guild
badge
Muppet !
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Charles Vasey wrote:
oi_you_nutter wrote:
It's game over.

See 10.4
Quote:

A General also Surrenders if all his Brigades are lost in Battle, unless stacked with a Subordinate who retains at least one Brigade. If King Charles Surrenders the Parliament Player wins an Automatic Victory.



I had it happen to me, once, in an early game. There is a lively THREAD here about dispersing with the King

Also watch out for retreating into an enemy area and losing an extra brigade. The King leading a three brigade army into battle can be vulnerable in the wrong circumstances.





Yes, you're right. I hadn't read on to the second paragraph. However, the reference to Surrendering is to losing all one's brigades in Battle not in Battle and during the Retreat. I would read that strictly unless there's a catch-all rule.


After reading it again, I agree that the extra brigade lost due a retreat into an area with an enemy PC marker is not a battle loss; the retreat is after the battle and also a brigade lost in that way is available for immediate recruitment (and it says so in both 10.2 and 10.3) which is definitely not the case for battle losses.

So if the last brigade in an army lead by King Charles is lost during the retreat after a battle, it is not a surrender condition, he is just unemployed.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Randall
Canada
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
If you have two brigades with Charles, say, and you lose those two brigades in battle, Charles surrenders immediately (and game over).

If Charles loses only one of those brigades but cannot retreat because his only path is into a space with enemy brigade(s), he surrenders (and game over) as of 10.3 (penultimate sentence).

If Charles loses only one brigade in this battle and then must retreat into a space with an enemy PC marker (but free of enemy brigades), he loses the second brigade but he does not surrender: instead, he goes to the Unemployed Generals box as per 8.2.


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Vasey
Scotland
Mortlake, London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nrandall wrote:
If you have two brigades with Charles, say, and you lose those two brigades in battle, Charles surrenders immediately (and game over).

If Charles loses only one of those brigades but cannot retreat because his only path is into a space with enemy brigade(s), he surrenders (and game over) as of 10.5 (penultimate sentence).

If Charles loses only one brigade in this battle and then must retreat into a space with an enemy PC marker (but free of enemy brigades), he loses the second brigade but he does not surrender: instead, he goes to the Unemployed Generals box as per 8.2.




Is the 10.5 reference above, Neil, actually to 10.3?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Vasey
Scotland
Mortlake, London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
oi_you_nutter wrote:


So if the last brigade in an army lead by King Charles is lost during the retreat after a battle, it is not a surrender condition, he is just unemployed.



Yes, my thought was that the Stuarts were damned slippery fellows and if he got off the field he was free.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Norell
New Zealand
AUCKLAND
flag msg tools
mbmb
Glad that's all sorted. Thanks for the clarification gents
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Randall
Canada
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Quote:
Is the 10.5 reference above, Neil, actually to 10.3?


Yes, of course. I was so proud of using "penultimate" in my answer that I didn't bother to check the references.

I've changed the ref in my original post to avoid confusion for anyone coming to it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Vasey
Scotland
Mortlake, London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nrandall wrote:
Quote:
Is the 10.5 reference above, Neil, actually to 10.3?


Yes, of course. I was so proud of using "penultimate" in my answer that I didn't bother to check the references.

I've changed the ref in my original post to avoid confusion for anyone coming to it.


It was a very cool answer; briefly I remembered the logic of it all then like that, poof, it was gone
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.