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Subject: Looking for complex game. rss

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Samo Oleami
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After a thread on social/interactive games, I'm looking now for something complex, but of a specific type of complex.

As I have background in MtG Race for the Galaxy really hit the mark for me. The game is very complex to start with, and from there you have plenty of combinations, from which your strategy can evolve. I am looking for the complexitiy of this kind. I do not like the games which are simple but once you play them, you find there is a complexitiy in this simplicity - i.e. all Knizia games. Don't care for that.I am intelligent person, who can process a lot of data and can learn quickly. Games which are for some too tough too learn, might just be the thing for me.

Also: no wargames. Not my thing. No hack 'n' slash either.
It can be co-op (though that's the other thread. No BGG od SoC please. AH I do own).

What I'm looking for is
a) 3-4 player (or 3-5) player game of this type of complexity. Can be 2-3 hours long. What I want is a good, well made game.
Maybe:
Agricola (Duh)
Indonesia Any other complex economy game? (power grid I own)
Die Macher Seems fiddly, which is not a plus. Amy experience with it?
Catan: Cities & KnightsCatan I upgrade you to heavy.

b) medium to heavy 2 player game (but no San Juan or Glory to Rome as i do not look for "copies" of RftG)
Maybe:
Jambo? Is this worth playing (compared to RftG)?



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Mikael Ölmestig
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a) I think you will like Le Havre. I've heard that it works good for 2 players too.
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Zé Mário
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3-4 players? Complex economic game? 2-3 hours?

Brass, of course.
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Green Knight Games
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Age of Steam / Steam ? complex, plays in a couple of hours, not 2-player though.
Jambo is a good 2-player game, but not complex
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Joe Kundlak
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b) I would recommend Twilight Struggle (which might seem like a Wargame but it is not; it is more of a teritory control game)

And Jambo seems very good as a 2-player game indeed. Go fetch both! ninja
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Brian Cherry
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I second *Le Havre or Agricola. I think those will scratch your itch best.

I would also recommend Amyitis or Caylus.
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Mitch Willis
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Age of Empires III: The Age of Discovery
Masters of Venice (this one is due out any day now and looks to be a pretty complex economy game with a lot going on...)
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Troy Winfrey
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I second Age of Empires.

But for the real deal, tackle Indonesia. One of the best games on the Geek. Subtle, beautiful play.
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Agricola, Amyitis, and Cuba. Perhaps El Capitan. All play with 2.

Jambo is a good 2-player game, but not sure it qualifies as medium to heavy. Similar to Jambo, also plays with two, is Before the Wind.
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J Kosec
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It sounds like you'd certainly enjoy Die Macher, but it would be harder to fit into your 2-3 hour time frame. To me it's not burdensome in its fiddliness, but it does help to have a couple people responsible for the different maintenance tasks. Similarly, Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization could work for you, with the same caveats. There's a lot to manage--some perceive this as fiddliness--and the play length for the Full Game is at the top end of your range. But the Advanced Game is also satisfying and could more easily fit in your time frame. It also plays well with two.

In addition to the other excellent suggestions above, I would suggest that you also investigate Tikal. Medium-length, lots of decisions, great theme, works well with 2-5 (some think less so with 2, however).

You should also consider Tigris & Euphrates, even though you've picked on Knizia already. I think this one gives you plenty to think about out of the gate.

For my part, I think you'd find Jambo a slight letdown. There are a lot of fruitful card interactions and interesting combos, but this one lacks a bit of the complexity-punch of RftG.

You might also fancy Goa. Personally, I think it offers a wider array of satisfying choices than Age of Empires III.

Happy hunting.
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Jay Sheely
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Complex? How about 'Here I Stand' or 'Successors' or 'Pax Romana'

All 3 support more than 2 players and are by GMT. None of them are wargames.

Or there's Twilight Imperium which isn't complex but really feels like it when you're playing.

I would hotlink but I don't know how.
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To hotlink, click the game button on the toolbar, and type in the name of the game. Choices will come up - click on the game you want, and the hotlinked game will be inserted into your reply. It will look odd, because it will have numbers rather than its name, but it will look fine when posted.
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A lot of good suggestions already. I think the only other ones that haven't been mentioned...

Puerto Rico
Container
The Princes of Florence

-----
I'd second...

Agricola
Age of Steam
Caylus
Brass: Lancashire
Le Havre
Cuba
Goa
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Samo Oleami
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theonomous wrote:
It sounds like you'd certainly enjoy Die Macher, but it would be harder to fit into your 2-3 hour time frame. To me it's not burdensome in its fiddliness, but it does help to have a couple people responsible for the different maintenance tasks. Similarly, Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization could work for you, with the same caveats. There's a lot to manage--some perceive this as fiddliness--and the play length for the Full Game is at the top end of your range. But the Advanced Game is also satisfying and could more easily fit in your time frame. It also plays well with two.
Thanks for both suggestions (and the whole post, nice ideas, I'll carry on hunting). Well die Macher is longer, but if it's involving enough that people stay for the whole duration, than it might be fun here and there (in the same spot as Arkham Horror). I expected some CIV games will tend to show up. Any other, you'd suggest?

theonomous wrote:
In addition to the other excellent suggestions above, I would suggest that you also investigate Tikal. Medium-length, lots of decisions, great theme, works well with 2-5 (some think less so with 2, however).
Played a year ago. I wasn't into boardgaming then, I don't know, I would be willing to play it again, but not buy it. Nice, but, totally not in the sense of complexity I'm after.

theonomous wrote:
You should also consider Tigris & Euphrates, even though you've picked on Knizia already. I think this one gives you plenty to think about out of the gate.
Well this is the only Knizia, I was really thinking on possibly buying. But it's an abstract, no? If it play similar to lost cities, I think I'll pass (pure mechanics, no out of the game thinking). Anybody played both?

theonomous wrote:
For my part, I think you'd find Jambo a slight letdown. There are a lot of fruitful card interactions and interesting combos, but this one lacks a bit of the complexity-punch of RftG.
Hm, yes well I was expecting it to be lighter. Still what you say doesn't sound that bad. Lot of combinations is good.

theonomous wrote:
You might also fancy Goa. Personally, I think it offers a wider array of satisfying choices than Age of Empires III.
I think this one is the one to avoid. Lot of bad rewievs.

I'm looking for complexity, not complex mechanics or complexity that comes from dinamics. These are not the same thing. For me the complexity comes from variety and the possible combinations of all the wide array of elements enable.
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Daniel Danzer
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Confucius is the one you are after, I guess.
Avg. weight: 3.7
3 - 5 players (best with 4).
High complexity level, gift giving to oblige people to you, several ways to victory and - yes, "strategical" instead of "tactical", yet no wargame at all.
And pretty thematic, too.

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G L
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Reef Encounter is a good heavy 2-4 player game that some call an "economy" game. Also maybe try a card driven game like Twilight Struggle or 1960: The Making of the President (which is more towards the medium weight than TS, but is faster).

However, my #1 recommendation for you for 3 or more players, based on your desire of complex combinations between cards, and multiple evolving strategies is Illuminati: New World Order. Hear me out, you may have had bad experiences with the standard Illuminati game, but this fits all of your criteria. It's a CCG, but a dead one, and they published a factory set with one of every card called the "One With Everything" edition. With a group of 3 or 4, deal out all 400 or so cards in the deck, have everyone make a playable deck out of what they receive (about 50 or so cards), and you have a fantastic game with variable player powers, different/sometimes hidden win conditions, humor, negotiation, etc. The worst part of the old game (as CCG) was degenerate deck construction with multiples of certain powerful cards, which only using a single One With Everything set addresses. If I could find 2 other people who knew/were willing to learn this one, I would almost always opt for it over Race for the Galaxy, and I love Race. Variable play length, but rarely more than 2 hours long among experienced players, probably about 25 bucks for the One With Everything set on eBay.

Also, Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization rocks, at least for 2-3 players. It is "fiddly"... but you will love it anyway.
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Lo Ma
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Caylus is an excellent medium heavy game with a good amount of complexity and breadth. It has a good sense of preogression to it so that you feel liuke you;re getting somewhere and the decisions points feel meaningful. Multiuple paths to victory and no hidden inormation in this game, except for what's in your opponent's head. Plus I like the theme of being a medieval real estate developer. Caylus is the premiere worker placement game coupled with resource management. Scales well for 2 to 3 players, but with 4 players, the game might drag if anyone is prone to analysis paralysis. Excellent replayability - it is still my number one and most played game since it came out in 2005. It takes an hour to an hour and a half to play for experienced players.



Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization is another possibility. I steered clear of this one for a long time because I don;t dig card driven games that much and because of the proce tag, but I finally gave in and bought a copy and played it. Totally worth the price!!! A fantastic civ-lite game with a good amount of complexity and several strategies you can take to victory. There is hidden info in this one, as with all civ type games, but it works well. There is technology, but no tech tree although at some point, very outdated technologies are cycled out. There is a certain amount of housekeeping in this one which some folks find fiddly, but compared the AH Civilization, Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization is very unfiddly!!! Plays well with 2 and 3 players - with 4 I think the game would drag. You can play it in 2-4 hours depending on if you're playing the Advanced or Full game, and how experienced the players are...




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Rob Judy
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Give Sylla or Notre Dame a try. Also Arkham Horror, with all it's expansions can be quite complex. I also 2nd (or is it 3rd or 4th) Caylus!
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Chris Ferejohn
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Umm, Tigris & Euphrates is *nothing* like Lost Cities. Seriously, couldn't be more dissimilar. Not sure why you would have that impression (other than having the same designer I guess). It is quite complex, and fits within your timeframe.

As for whether it is an abstract, if you look through its forums, I'm sure you will find many threads arguing that it is anything from brilliantly integrated with its theme to having nothing to do with it. Personally, I think of it as an extremely abstracted civilisation game (Gheos is like that too).

Anyway, while Caylus, Agricola, and Le Havre are great suggestions as well, I think T&E is worth considering. You mentioned that Die Macher might be too fiddly for you, so I think it is worth mentioning that the three games above are all a bit fiddly (in the sense of having lots of pieces to keep track of) as well, and T&E is somewhat less so.

Hard to go wrong with any of the suggestions here. Good luck!
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Laurence Parsons
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glundee1 wrote:
Reef Encounter is a good heavy 2-4 player game that some call an "economy" game.

I second Reef Encounter.
you could always try it on Spielbyweb.com first
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Bruce Padget
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freduk wrote:
glundee1 wrote:
Reef Encounter is a good heavy 2-4 player game that some call an "economy" game.

I second Reef Encounter.

And a third for it. Don't let the theme fool you, it's a vicious game.
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Jim Cote
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sgosaric wrote:
As I have background in MtG Race for the Galaxy really hit the mark for me. The game is very complex to start with...

sgosaric wrote:
I do not like the games which are simple but once you play them, you find there is a complexitiy in this simplicity - i.e. all Knizia games.

sgosaric wrote:
Catan: Cities & KnightsCatan I upgrade you to heavy.

sgosaric wrote:
b) medium to heavy 2 player game (but no San Juan or Glory to Rome as i do not look for "copies" of RftG)

I can't make any recommendations, because it seems your definition of heavy is my definition of light, and your definiiton of complex is my definition of simple.
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Richard Mayhew
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Here I go again: Cuba! Well, it's not really complex but there are many different strategies one can employ, and it has a lot of different, well balanced, interactive game mechanics.
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bapadget wrote:
freduk wrote:
glundee1 wrote:
Reef Encounter is a good heavy 2-4 player game that some call an "economy" game.

I second Reef Encounter.

And a third for it. Don't let the theme fool you, it's a vicious game.


Fourth.
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Since you've said it can be co-op, I'm going to take a slightly different track and recommend Fury of Dracula (second edition). It's a relatively complex, lengthy game that plays very well with 2-5 players.
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