Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
10 Posts

Unhappy King Charles!» Forums » Rules

Subject: Besiged army preventing isolation? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Anders Dessmark
Sweden
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Can a besieged army prevent isolation? Reading 11.3 bullet 3 it seems that it can as it doesn't say unbesieged friendly army but maybe I'm supposed to look at the first bullet about supply fortresses and conclude that anything besieged does not prevent isolation?

The situation is this, royalist Wales is cut of from the rest of royalist areas. Lord Herbert is besiged by Essex and Maurice in Chester is besieged by Waller. It is clear from answers on consimworld that the royalists could trace through Chester if there was a chain eastwards from Chester but there isn't at this point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim P.
United States
Thousand Oaks
CA
flag msg tools
Visit the Wargame Bootcamp guild
badge
Muppet !
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Other official answer are based around interpreting the rules as they are; don't try and read between the lines.

Quote:
11.3 Political Isolation
A PC marker is Isolated when it cannot trace a chain of its own contiguous PC markers and/or empty Areas to one of:
* A friendly controlled Supply Fortress (not a limited Fortress) which is not Masked or Besieged by an enemy Army (14.0),
* A friendly unbesieged Local Notable, or
* A friendly Army
This chain cannot use the Maritime line between Hull and Gainsborough. Fortresses themselves, whether supply Fortresses or limited Fortresses, are never Isolated.


With an Army under Maurice in Chester, then that Army is still a supply source, even though it is besieged.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anders Dessmark
Sweden
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
oi_you_nutter wrote:
Other official answer are based around interpreting the rules as they are; don't try and read between the lines.


Thanks for the answer. I actually do like the rules for their clarity, I have to look a lot of things up but I almost always find a clear answer in the rules.


oi_you_nutter wrote:
With an Army under Maurice in Chester, then that Army is still a supply source, even though it is besieged.


I accept that and I agree that it is the litteral interpretation. The reason I asked was that it felt a bit strange that a cowardly General in Chester (I'm playing the Parliament side ) with one Brigade could prevent isolation even when besieged while for instance a besieged London with a couple of (unled) Brigades could not.

If I want to be really picky I could point to a strange effect of a litteral interpretation of the rules. It is possible, when checking for isolation, that there is an Area without PC marker with an unled Brigade. It seems like this Brigade would create isolation for both sides as the Area is no longer "empty". This is something I have serious troubles believing in.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anders Dessmark
Sweden
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
As it turned out, it didn't matter anyway as Maurice's only Brigade deserted surrendering Chester to the Parliament definitely isolating Wales.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Randall
Canada
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Quote:
It is possible, when checking for isolation, that there is an Area without PC marker with an unled Brigade. It seems like this Brigade would create isolation for both sides as the Area is no longer "empty".


That's correct.

Quote:
This is something I have serious troubles believing in.


May I ask why?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anders Dessmark
Sweden
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
nrandall wrote:
Quote:
It is possible, when checking for isolation, that there is an Area without PC marker with an unled Brigade. It seems like this Brigade would create isolation for both sides as the Area is no longer "empty".


That's correct.


So it is correct, I thought it was a misstake, possibly connected to the change of 11.2 that originally had brigades placing PC markers (making the situation I describe impossible if I'm not overlooking some odd situation)

Quote:

Quote:
This is something I have serious troubles believing in.


May I ask why?


Absolutely, I just have a hard time imagining what it is supposed to represent. So previously a parliamentarian administration in an area stayed in control because, through a neutral area, it had support from some parliamentarian general. Now there appears a parliamentarian brigade in the open area and the support is now broken. Is perhaps the unled brigade so undisciplined that they intercept messengers and tax collecters and what have you even if they belong to the same side?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Norell
New Zealand
AUCKLAND
flag msg tools
mbmb
I would disagree with that interpretation. Even though the third bullet says 'A friendly army', it stands to reason that if it is besieged then it is incapable of acting as a supply source/LOC in the same way that a besieged/masked Local Notable or Supply Fortress is. Am I missing something, or are you taking the rule too literally.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anders Dessmark
Sweden
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
pnorell wrote:
I would disagree with that interpretation. Even though the third bullet says 'A friendly army', it stands to reason that if it is besieged then it is incapable of acting as a supply source/LOC in the same way that a besieged/masked Local Notable or Supply Fortress is. Am I missing something, or are you taking the rule too literally.


Well I had the same feeling (even if not at the "it stands to reason" level). And in fact the developer entered this thread but not to clarify this question further but only as a response to my other isolation issue where I definitely thought that the litteral interpretation was the wrong one. And I believe that the somewhat indirect message was that, in the latter case as well, the litteral interpretation was correct.

I still want to add that the rules of this game is one of the best I have read.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Norell
New Zealand
AUCKLAND
flag msg tools
mbmb
I agree with you entirely about the clarity of the rules and have no qualms about the literal interpretation. I just don't understand why it should be so when it appears to contradict the other restrictions imposed upon 'besieged' forces (viz bullets one and two). As always, I am happy to bow to the designer's viewpoint. Perhaps this situation could be clarified. Why does a besieged army count as a supply source and/or LOC when a supply fortress or local notable in similar circumstances doesn't?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Rogers
United States
Hoboken
New Jersey
flag msg tools
designer
badge
They're Young, They're in Love... They eat LARD
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dessmark wrote:
nrandall wrote:
Quote:
It is possible, when checking for isolation, that there is an Area without PC marker with an unled Brigade. It seems like this Brigade would create isolation for both sides as the Area is no longer "empty".


That's correct.


So it is correct, I thought it was a misstake, possibly connected to the change of 11.2 that originally had brigades placing PC markers (making the situation I describe impossible if I'm not overlooking some odd situation)

Quote:

Quote:
This is something I have serious troubles believing in.


May I ask why?


Absolutely, I just have a hard time imagining what it is supposed to represent. So previously a parliamentarian administration in an area stayed in control because, through a neutral area, it had support from some parliamentarian general. Now there appears a parliamentarian brigade in the open area and the support is now broken. Is perhaps the unled brigade so undisciplined that they intercept messengers and tax collecters and what have you even if they belong to the same side?



I'm not entirely sure this can occur; under 11.2 "In the Political Control phase, players first place PC markers in all non-Fortress areas that are occupied by friendly Brigades or Friendly Local Notables (replacing an enemy marker if present)."

note: after reading through CSW and BGG I think the correct wording for this sentence is:

"In the Political Control phase, players first place PC markers in all non-Fortress areas that are occupied by friendly Armies (replacing an enemy marker if present)."
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.