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Subject: Federation & Empire 2010 rss

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James Lowry
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Steve V Cole wrote:
This is just for me to ramble until I am ready to discuss specifics.

We sold out of F&E-2000 today.

New counters will take 6-18 weeks, once they are ordered, which might not happen until after Origins.

We are out of sheet ONE, very low on TWO, and somewhat low on three other sheets.

Current TENTATIVE plan is to change the die pattern to have more counters per sheet, 280 vs 216.

F&E itself would have five sheets, two of one kind, three of another (which is still 64 extra counters), or maybe six sheets (344 extra counters).

What I WANT to do is to change the rulebook, get rid of carrier group counters, and provide the breakdown counters (including for the funky unbreakable groups) and the Carrier War rules for them in the core set.

I MIGHT even want to eliminate CEDS retrograde and change the mauler rules.

And Leanna wants me to do the warbook as part f F&E 2010 (which might appear during 2009). We (Chuck and I and selected others) are going to have a conversation about this at Origins.

One question is whether to print the five sheets we need, plus ISC WAR and CIVIL WARS or just print two of them and ISC WAR or three of them and CIVIL WARs.

I'm still thinking out loud, no definite plans, and we might just order a reprint of the existing sheets tomorrow and forget the whole idea. I wouldn't even be doing this if I wasn't running a high fever and not in control of my faculties.


He has since opened up the thread to discuss general ideas around the next edition of the game, so it looks like this is really going to happen.

Oh, and further bit of background: They've had trouble for a bit because the place they were doing their counters through refused to do it anymore. I think they found somewhere else to do the last few sets, but I guess that has fallen through (missed what exactly precipitated the current problem). At any rate, the place they're looking at going to will have slightly thinner counters, and more of them on a sheet. (Which isn't a surprise to me, ADB has much wider spaced groups of counters than MMP or GMT. I think—but do not know—that they're planning on going with the people who do MMP's counters.)
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Tim Roberts
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Any more news on when the new version is likely to appear and how it will differ from the previous incarnation?
 
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James Lowry
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Not really. I know some discussions happened with the F&E staff at Origins, but what really came out of it is in the mind of SVC.

Some things I do know:
Box: They have a bunch of left overs, so this will not change. They may very well change the part number, and sticker the data on the back. No idea if they'll end up stickering '2010 ed' (or something) on the front.
Forms booklet: They have a lot of leftovers, so that will not change. (Per SVC, a literal ton of them, but that may be a slight exaggeration....)
Map: There was talk of recoloring the map at Origins. (The joke is all purple, the smart money would be on something like the LSM, I hope for something like the Vassal map.)
Counters: From comments on the Origins podcast, it sounds like they'll probably do a six sheet set instead of a five-sheet one. (344 new counters) Oh, and they have leftovers of sheet E+F (the single-sided stuff), so that will not be changing for a while yet.

Expanded edition: From commentary on the Origins podcast, the 'extra countersheet editions' that you can order from ADB direct cause problems with the merchants (who don't like the idea that there's something they can't order when a customer asks after it). So, that deal is probably going away. If not, it will get more expensive, since you typically get a deal on the countersheets that looses money at wholesale prices. Of course, the countersheets will still be available as 'spare parts', so you can manually get the old deal.

Rules: All the errata will be folded in, and crossreferences to later rules embedded. This is being considered the first step towards the eventual 'Warbook' release (all rules in one volume).

Flexible carrier groups are in. Flexible conversions are (almost certainly) in. I would expect the new Enhanced Small Scale Combat to replace the old Single-ship combat directly. I'd guess the two starbase rule will show up. CEDS-retrograde will go away, or be nerfed, or something. Maulers may or may not change to help balance. SVC seems to be hunting for something to keep ship counts down a bit.

I'm pretty sure that they'll do everything they can for a release as early in 2010 as possible. (I don't see the rules rewrite being done any quicker.) Last known, SVC was still waiting on quotes to tell him if there is any significant price difference between single-sided and double-sided counters with the new printer. If there isn't then the first order will be for FC: Hydran Attack and F&E2010. If there is, then it's FC: HA, and whatever SFB project he can scrape up a counter manifest for, followed by F&E2010 & ISC War a few months later.
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Franco
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So for those of us that have the base game and all the expansions, aside from a re-coloured map, a good purchase might only be the new rulebook?
 
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James Lowry
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That would be the intent.

Though I was looking a my (unpunched) copy of FO and realizing that I don't have nearly as many carrier and escort counters as I'd like....
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James Lowry
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By the way, here's the general outlook on the new edition:

CURRENT STATE OF THE RULES CHANGES IN F&E-2010, 20 July 2009, 1600 hours Texas Time

1. If the enemy has at least 100 attack points (when the force is formed) and does not use directed damage, and if the total BIR (as adjusted) is 5 or more, the first damage points a player resolves on his own force must be used to kill one ship which cannot be one of the three smallest ships. If the points involved are not enough to kill the ship in question, then kill any ship. If there are not enough points to kill any ship, ignore this rule. The player may substitute self kills of two "small units" for the mandatory ship kill. Small units include auxiliaries, police ships, the three smallest ships present, SIDS steps, PDUs, and PDBs, but exclude fighters, PFs, residual defense units, planetary devastation, PRDs, FRDs, admirals, generals, prime teams, diplomatic teams, and other small units that do not count against command limits. In the case of crippled ships (which could be given up as kills), these are counted (for purposes of "smallest") by the crippled defense factor.

2. If the smaller of the two battle forces has over 50 ships (counted by "pinning equivalents"), neither side can withdraw (even before combat) until two battle rounds are fought. Offering an approach battle (even if it is declined) counts as fighting a battle round. Under 308.22, the attacker would be required to offer two such approach battles.

3. If the BIR is 7 or more, each player may make two Directed Damage attacks instead of just one. (Only one can use a mauler. Only one of the two attacks can target PDUs.) If the BIR is 0, 1, 2, or 3, no Directed Damage Attacks can be made.

4. Voluntary minus points carried forward from any battle round may not exceed 3.

5. Remove the "fixed" carrier group counters in the original base game and replace them with the flexible "build your own group" counters from Fighter Operations. Eliminate all rules designed to make the "fixe groups" workable, including: out of sequence retrograde, out of sequence conversion, out of sequence construction.

6. Replacing the SSC thing with Chuck’s ESSC (323.0). [CL37 and on-line]

7. That thing (450.5) about splitting up a three-point conversion into three one-point conversions added to 433.1. [from PO]

8. Maulers can't be used when directing on a non-slow ship with the formation bonus.

9. LTTs are 2/3 of a tug. Theater transports are 1/3 of tug. FEs and CPCs are 1/3 of a tug. If a group of tuglettes are doing a conversion and one is killed, you still get fractional credit and can finish the conversion later.

10. Not sure about this one, but allow one DirDam attack to include two or more ships which are part of "the battlegroup".

(440.3) [Triangle fighter factors, from FO] is going to need to be incorporated in the main rules, because you're going to have separate WH counters (2.5 fighter factors each...)

(509.1) mention all of the tug missions from all of the products, even though it won’t be possible to do most of them until you buy those products. [There is an outside chance that tug assignments will go to the 'flexible system' from a few Captain's Logs back.]

Counters: Replace sheets one and two with two new sheets of 280 counters. Converting the carrier groups will take up most of the extra counters, and we can fill the rest with the most-used counters, probably frigates, destroyers, war cruisers, and so forth. No factors on counters will be changed.

Eliminate magical Kzinti CL to MEC conversions [which says to me that the Kzintis will possibly get the revised set up from AO with a mix of CLEs and CLs in place of the MECs]
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Andrew C
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Looks like the map will stay the same, I was skimming the thread today and noticed somewhere in there that Stephen Cole said they had thousands of the original one left.
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James Lowry
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Yes, it turned out the map discussion was purely off of the purple joke.

Pity, I'd like to see a better map. At least it's better than the original.
 
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GM Davis
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There is one you can download in the files section

I'm shilling a little
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James Lowry
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18 1/2" wide? (Well, after converting to a real print size—300 dpi.)

And I still prefer the map I did for the Vassal module.
 
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Do I care/want to wait for 2010 to get in to it, or should I plunge in now with a used copy because it's not going to be diff enough.

I think what I'm asking is:
Sounds like counters, a few rules, and errata/cross-reference merged in. Does that matter to be a n00b?


 
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James Lowry
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Depends on how eager you are. F&E2K is a good solid set (it's considered to be slightly pro-Alliance with experienced play, but balanced for beginners). But I'm glad to see the carrier group rules coming to the main set.

If you can find a copy cheap, I'd probably go for that, and then buy the new rulebook when it comes out (~$15). You'll either need to get Carrier War or some of the new counter sheets (which are usually available separately) for counters to go with the carrier group rules (you'll want CW anyway for a few rules that aren't going into the main set—and yeah, they're good rules to have if you want to get into the expansions). Note: if you get one now, do try to go for a current F&E2K version, it is substantially better than the previous ones.

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James Lowry
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Further news:
Steve Cole wrote:
We're still "hopeful" we can release it [F&E2010] during February, but March at worst.

Unless Jean convinces Leanna that she needs to proofread it, in which case November would be a better guess.
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James Lowry
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And from yesterday:

Steve Cole wrote:
At a meeting today, the release date for F&E 2010 was set as 22 February 2010.

I am putting this memo here so you can find it.

F&E has been the #1 priority (PD FED was #0 while Jean was here and still gets a few minutes per day) since early December.

We need to wrap this up. To that end, no more witch hunts. No more new rule proposals unless you get me or Chuck Strong to approve (via email) posting them.

I have 18 CORE CHANGES FILES of which 17 are posted and I'm looking for the last one, and will find it shortly, but I wanted to let you guys know that we just crossed the 20 yard line and it's first and 10 on the 17. I do not intend to settle for a field goal. I do intend to use all eight downs to put this thing over the goal line if I have to.

A release date of 22 Feb means we will start printing on about 19 Feb.

Today is 14 Jan, so there are 36 days remaining.

May God Himself help us finish this without anybody having a nervous breakdown.
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Jeff Watts
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So did F&E 2010 become a reality, since it's now 2/22/2010?
 
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Keith Higdon
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Yes it did.
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James Lowry
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Steve Cole wrote:
NEW PRODUCT ALERT: We will get the new products on the cart as soon as we can. That is supposed to be today (Monday 22 Feb 2010) but it might not happen until tomorrow. (Since we won't ship these items to mail order until March 1st, it won't really matter.)

The problem is that there are:
11 new products to add
11 new products to put photos into
4 new products for Leanna to set up bound/unbound
4 new products for Leanna to set up punched/unpunched
11 new products to put into the "new product" category

All of that, while we are trying to ship wholesaler orders (and some orders that must ship today were just received minutes ago).

And it gets worse; Leanna has to leave now and go meet the cable TV guys at our house, and she does not know if she will get back here today.

All of this needs to go on the cart at the same time because it is too hard to "add things to orders". If we put F&E 2010 on the cart today and the buttons for large print edition tomorrow, those of you who couldn't wait to order will have to re-authorize your cards for the extra $5.

If we don't get all of the new stuff on the "new products" page, most of you will miss one or two and have to make a separate second order.

That's just a nightmare we don't need. Not you or us.

So, bear with us, you'll still have your new products shipped on March 1st no matter when we put them on the cart.

I'm not sure what the other products are, but F&E2010 is among them. Also:

Quote:
You guys asked for the separate book price. This book is 164 pages, compared to a $20 captain's Log that sells for $20. Captain's Log has an expensive color cover, but spare part prices are always higher than retail. Long story cut short, I got Leanna to cut the spare parts price from $25 to $20 because she loves F&E players. (The large print edition will be $25, which will be around 225 pages, we won't know until I finish doing it.
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Tsar Count
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It looks like it is now on their website:

http://store.starfleetstore.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Scree...

My question is.....I know this apparently has new carrier rules. Does that mean Federation & Empire: Fighter Operations is still needed?

How about the other 2K expansions? Just curious.

I had the original (1986) and then upgraded to Deluxe in 1990 with the expansions, and held off getting 2K when I heard 2010 was coming out. So it appears the 2K Expansions are still good for 2010?, or do they need to redo those as well.
 
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James Lowry
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The 2K expansions should still be good in general. I believe there are thoughts towards rewriting them too, as part of the work-up to the Warbook (all the rules in one volume).

Some of the value of FO is gone into F&E2010, yes, but there are still rules that are only in FO (Salvage, most notably). Also, it introduces a bunch of new carrier types not in the base game (nor in the original Carrier War). Several of these are based off of rules/ships in CO and AO, but enough rules are reproduced in FO to be able to use them. However, FO may now be the second or third expansion to get instead of the first. Once things settle down, there may be some attention given as to what to do with FO now.
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How useful (or how distracting) do you think the compendium of F&E articles (from Captain's Logs 20-40) would be now that the core F&E rulebook has been updated? I'm considering getting it, but I worry that much of it would be completely outdated now.
 
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James Lowry
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In general, it should still be good. There'll be lots of tactical notes, and the bulk of those will still be good, despite the changes. There's Q&A, which has fed a lot of clarified rules, but only rare ones should have been invalidated by the changes. There's also lots of playtest rules, some of which are already in actual products. And F&E stats for the new ships in each issue of Captain's Log, some of which are already in new products.

In all, I would assume it's something of a mixed bag, but it always has been. I just have most of the original issues, so I don't know what exactly the compilation is like.
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Alec Clair
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Are there any plans for a simpler/shorter version of Federation & Empire, like what ADB have done with Federation commander for Starfleet Battle.

Thanks

 
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James Lowry
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There have been a couple of off-hand comments, but no actual plan at the moment.
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