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c ball
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I recently ordered a game from CoolStuffInc. for about $50. After ordering I received an e-mail telling me it was on hold. The reason being that I was over the $150 limit and more information was required. I have ordered from this company before and other companies. This is the first time I have ever encountered this and I was wondering if anyone else had this problem. Yes I could have givin' them the information but I felt it was not necessary, if it was good enough before it should be good enough now. Can someone give me some information on this. Please and Thank-you.soblue
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Daniel Barrett
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It may a have to do with your credit card company policies and not the online vendor themselves.

Or that you are an international customer.
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Alex Treacher
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Helljin wrote:
Or that you are an international customer.

This whole business with companies 'requiring' extra information from international customers bugs me. In fairness, most companies with whom I place orders internationally are fine about it and simply require the normal information - credit card details, address, sometimes a phone number in case of problems, etc. Also, to be fair, I've not encountered this situation with any games companies to date.

However, what makes some companies 'require' extra information - and I've been asked to supply scans/faxes of my passport or driving licence in the past, and other personal data that isn't relevant? I've never got a good answer from those companies either; "it's our policy" doesn't count as a real explanation.

I can, of course, supply copies of such documents. The question is "why should I"? What makes the requesting company different or special that they want this information whereas most don't? In the instances that I've encountered it I've never been buying weapons-grade plutonium, the lease on an underwater headquarters or ion-cannon blueprints...

Also, finally, I've only encountered it from companies in the US. Has anyone found the same situation from companies based in other parts of the world, or is it solely a US phenomenon?

(This post was meant to be a quick couple of sentences. Apologies for it turning into a derail!)
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Prodromoi wrote:

Also, finally, I've only encountered it from companies in the US. Has anyone found the same situation from companies based in other parts of the world, or is it solely a US phenomenon?


I had a similar problem with a UK based company recently, it seems that it has spilled over
 
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Prodromoi wrote:
However, what makes some companies 'require' extra information - and I've been asked to supply scans/faxes of my passport or driving licence in the past,


So what happens if someone says they haven't got a driving licence (me) or passport (I've got one but I might tell them I hadn't).
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Prodromoi wrote:
Helljin wrote:
Or that you are an international customer.

This whole business with companies 'requiring' extra information from international customers bugs me. In fairness, most companies with whom I place orders internationally are fine about it and simply require the normal information - credit card details, address, sometimes a phone number in case of problems, etc. Also, to be fair, I've not encountered this situation with any games companies to date.

However, what makes some companies 'require' extra information - and I've been asked to supply scans/faxes of my passport or driving licence in the past, and other personal data that isn't relevant? I've never got a good answer from those companies either; "it's our policy" doesn't count as a real explanation.

I can, of course, supply copies of such documents. The question is "why should I"? What makes the requesting company different or special that they want this information whereas most don't? In the instances that I've encountered it I've never been buying weapons-grade plutonium, the lease on an underwater headquarters or ion-cannon blueprints...

Also, finally, I've only encountered it from companies in the US. Has anyone found the same situation from companies based in other parts of the world, or is it solely a US phenomenon?

(This post was meant to be a quick couple of sentences. Apologies for it turning into a derail!)


This is a standard procedure in the web-hosting industry, where we get a lot of foreign orders. There is a HUGE amount of credit card fraud, and requiring proof of ID goes a long way in keeping that in check. Sounds like other internet based companies are catching up.

Every fraudulent transaction costs us a fortune in lost product, and even more in wasted time.Of course you don't have to provide proof of ID, but the retailer doesn't have to sell to you if you won't play ball.


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They can do this if they want but they should state it beforehand. I dealt with a company who processed my order and took my credit card details including a scan of the front and back of the card and after they had this they demanded a scan of my passport before they would go through with the transaction. As far as I am concerned by indicating all they needed was the normal information plus scans of the card they obtained my credit card details fraudulently.

www.IconUSA.com was the company concerned.
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Ian Klinck
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quardlepleen wrote:
This is a standard procedure in the web-hosting industry, where we get a lot of foreign orders. There is a HUGE amount of credit card fraud, and requiring proof of ID goes a long way in keeping that in check. Sounds like other internet based companies are catching up.


Yes, credit card fraud is a big issue in e-commerce. They're doing this to make sure no one else is trying to buy stuff with your stolen card.
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The 3DSecure standard in credit cards (where you can assign a password to your card) was supposed to help prevent fraud and make this sort of fraud check unnecessary.
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quardlepleen wrote:
Of course you don't have to provide proof of ID, but the retailer doesn't have to sell to you if you won't play ball.

This is completely the wrong way around, I'm afraid. The customer doesn't have to give their custom (and money) to a retailer who chooses to act in such a way.

Personally I'd rather not deal with a company that assumes that potential customers are guilty until proven innocent. And the "stolen credit card usage" theory doesn't hold water; if that was the company's concern then they'd be asking all potential customers for additional ID - it being entirely commonplace for stolen credit cards to be used in the same country that they were stolen*. But to be distrustful of a potential customer because they're outside the border? That's insulting.

This kind of behaviour on the part of a company costs them customers who'll go elsewhere, not to mention the bad publicity that it engenders. When you're the customer, vote with your wallet.

*Having held a post within a major UK credit card provider, as well as the police, I'm not completely unfamiliar with credit card offences.
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Prodromoi wrote:
quardlepleen wrote:
Of course you don't have to provide proof of ID, but the retailer doesn't have to sell to you if you won't play ball.

This is completely the wrong way around, I'm afraid. The customer doesn't have to give their custom (and money) to a retailer who chooses to act in such a way.


Umm, no, this goes both ways. You are free not to purchase from them, and they are free not to sell to you. If they have found that an unacceptable number of international customers (particularly those who refuse to provide ID) end up causing problems due to stolen cards, they are perfectly free (and perfectly reasonable/rational) to start asking for ID. You are of course equally free to get huffy about it and shop elsewhere. They have presumably looked at the numbers and decided that those are acceptable losses.
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Brü Meister
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There is absolutely NO WAY I would provide any company a scan of my passport or driver's license or credit card!
Over the internet no less.
All these documents have my signature on them - way too easy for ID theft.
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cferejohn wrote:
Prodromoi wrote:
quardlepleen wrote:
Of course you don't have to provide proof of ID, but the retailer doesn't have to sell to you if you won't play ball.

This is completely the wrong way around, I'm afraid. The customer doesn't have to give their custom (and money) to a retailer who chooses to act in such a way.


Umm, no, this goes both ways. You are free not to purchase from them, and they are free not to sell to you. If they have found that an unacceptable number of international customers (particularly those who refuse to provide ID) end up causing problems due to stolen cards, they are perfectly free (and perfectly reasonable/rational) to start asking for ID. You are of course equally free to get huffy about it and shop elsewhere. They have presumably looked at the numbers and decided that those are acceptable losses.


You are 100% correct my good man.

Credit card scammers talk to each other. If one guy gets through, you'll have a tsunami of bogus credit card orders within 48 hours.

Not too long ago we relaxed our procedures due to a few customer complaints, and it took us 2 months to clean out all the bad accounts.

The people who's numbers were stolen all got their money back through their card companies. We, as the merchant, get NOTHING. So we lose the value of the merchandise/service, PLUS the man-hours wasted trying to clean up the mess.

So if I have to choose between losing a sale and tighter security, I'll take the tighter security every time.



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cferejohn wrote:
Prodromoi wrote:
quardlepleen wrote:
Of course you don't have to provide proof of ID, but the retailer doesn't have to sell to you if you won't play ball.

This is completely the wrong way around, I'm afraid. The customer doesn't have to give their custom (and money) to a retailer who chooses to act in such a way.


Umm, no, this goes both ways. You are free not to purchase from them, and they are free not to sell to you. If they have found that an unacceptable number of international customers (particularly those who refuse to provide ID) end up causing problems due to stolen cards, they are perfectly free (and perfectly reasonable/rational) to start asking for ID. You are of course equally free to get huffy about it and shop elsewhere. They have presumably looked at the numbers and decided that those are acceptable losses.

If you're selling boardgames then the likelihood is a large cross-section of your customer base will be unable or unwilling to produce a form of identity that you would find acceptable. Arguably demanding such ID would increase losses much more than having to deal with the odd fraudulent card-user. One mustn't presume that they have looked at the figures; from that perspective they will be looking at what they are losing and not what they could potentially lose by denying their customers ease of purchase.

From my perspective; I have only ever had a paper licence (no need of anything else so far) and my passport will be due for renewal soon (and probably won't be renewed straight away). So I would feel I am being forced to pay £150+ just to give my order enough validity; alright in the long-run, not for the odd order.
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Prodromoi wrote:
quardlepleen wrote:
Of course you don't have to provide proof of ID, but the retailer doesn't have to sell to you if you won't play ball.

This is completely the wrong way around, I'm afraid. The customer doesn't have to give their custom (and money) to a retailer who chooses to act in such a way.

Personally I'd rather not deal with a company that assumes that potential customers are guilty until proven innocent.

*Having held a post within a major UK credit card provider, as well as the police, I'm not completely unfamiliar with credit card offences.



This is one that always bugs me as a retailer. I am not assuming everyone is guilty, this is done for your financial safety as well as ours. How would you feel if a company didn't ask for proof of ID and it was someone using your stolen credit card. Scammers tend to be pretty good at seeming innocent, the mall I work at just busted some 80 some year old lady that had been using stolen credit cards at numerous stores in the area.
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Hivemind wrote:
They can do this if they want but they should state it beforehand. I dealt with a company who processed my order and took my credit card details including a scan of the front and back of the card and after they had this they demanded a scan of my passport before they would go through with the transaction. As far as I am concerned by indicating all they needed was the normal information plus scans of the card they obtained my credit card details fraudulently.

www.IconUSA.com was the company concerned.


Emphasis in red is mine.

I don't think I'd be inclined to bother sending scans of any documents, but the front AND back of a credit card reveals not only your signature but the security digits that people ask for in an attempt to stop credit card fraud in the first place.

For an order they would have your address, and having your passport details gives them date of birth, signature and other personal information. I am sure all those combined is a sure way to find your money (and possibly identity) at risk.
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fellonmyhead wrote:
cferejohn wrote:
Prodromoi wrote:
quardlepleen wrote:
Of course you don't have to provide proof of ID, but the retailer doesn't have to sell to you if you won't play ball.

This is completely the wrong way around, I'm afraid. The customer doesn't have to give their custom (and money) to a retailer who chooses to act in such a way.


Umm, no, this goes both ways. You are free not to purchase from them, and they are free not to sell to you. If they have found that an unacceptable number of international customers (particularly those who refuse to provide ID) end up causing problems due to stolen cards, they are perfectly free (and perfectly reasonable/rational) to start asking for ID. You are of course equally free to get huffy about it and shop elsewhere. They have presumably looked at the numbers and decided that those are acceptable losses.

Arguably demanding such ID would increase losses much more than having to deal with the odd fraudulent card-user. One mustn't presume that they have looked at the figures; from that perspective they will be looking at what they are losing and not what they could potentially lose by denying their customers ease of purchase.


It isn't the odd fraud attempt... we see dozens every month. Of course a game store probably won't see that many, but they're probably less able to absorb the cost of lost time and merchandise.

 
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Andy Leighton
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quardlepleen wrote:
fellonmyhead wrote:
cferejohn wrote:
Prodromoi wrote:
quardlepleen wrote:
Of course you don't have to provide proof of ID, but the retailer doesn't have to sell to you if you won't play ball.

This is completely the wrong way around, I'm afraid. The customer doesn't have to give their custom (and money) to a retailer who chooses to act in such a way.


Umm, no, this goes both ways. You are free not to purchase from them, and they are free not to sell to you. If they have found that an unacceptable number of international customers (particularly those who refuse to provide ID) end up causing problems due to stolen cards, they are perfectly free (and perfectly reasonable/rational) to start asking for ID. You are of course equally free to get huffy about it and shop elsewhere. They have presumably looked at the numbers and decided that those are acceptable losses.

Arguably demanding such ID would increase losses much more than having to deal with the odd fraudulent card-user. One mustn't presume that they have looked at the figures; from that perspective they will be looking at what they are losing and not what they could potentially lose by denying their customers ease of purchase.


It isn't the odd fraud attempt... we see dozens every month. Of course a game store probably won't see that many, but they're probably less able to absorb the cost of lost time and merchandise.



I think the big difference between you and a game shop is that games are tangible goods which are delivered to the customer. Web-hosting is a service. By a game shop insisting that foreign orders go to the verified card address (the one used for statements) the possibility of fraud is lowered massively.
 
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I had to do the same thing with Coolstuff since I'm living in a foreign country now. I only had to do it once, so it wasn't so bad, but it did throw me for a loop when the made a request. What made me a little wary is that they asked for this information through e-mail which isn't the most secure channel anyway.

I can understand why they do it with international credit card fraud being such a big problem. I'm not so surprised by it since I usually get a message from my credit card company that they are stopping my credit line anytime I spend over a few hundred dollars overseas due to "suspicious activity". It usually requires a phone call, so it's a big hassle, but I guess it's a reality of the world we live in.

It would be nice if Coolstuff made this information a part of their first time customer sign up rather than taking care of this through suspicious e-mails.
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One problem I have with gaming companies is the use of flimsy paper cards. Honestly, for the amount I'm paying for many of these games, I certainly wouldn't mind paying a bit extra for plastic cards that will last much longer.
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Strangely enough, as a US citizen purchasing on US sites I've had to provide "additional data"...although not to the extent indicated by some of the international people above. I've even had an online retailer refuse to drop ship product to a location that didn't match with my account details.

None of this was with board game companies, though. It was related to some high ticket items.

However, I would be real reluctant to share scans of passports, driver's licenses, or other means of identification because of the potential for ID theft. A copy of a US Driver's License is a veritable gold mine for ID thieves and I imagine the same is true of our international cousins.

It's not that I wouldn't trust some random online retailer with that type of data, but that I wouldn't trust any retailer (online or otherwise) with that type of data.

Just to defuse an obvious question "Surely you don't object to showing your License as proof of ID when shopping at a local store?"

No I don't object at all, but a 10 second glance is a far cry from an image sent via the Internet.
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nakedhobo wrote:
How would you feel if a company didn't ask for proof of ID and it was someone using your stolen credit card.

If I'd created and sent out a convenient little identity-theft-in-a-box package of scanned sensitive documents? i'd feel that I thoroughly deserved it...
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The additional "security" requests regarding international customers is probably due to the additional costs and difficulties in prosecuting fraudulent users from other countries.
You may have to hire a legal firm from that country, an interpreter, and deal with the government and police in that country. The laws in different countries are different in how they deal with various crimes, and the whole process may be more than a business wants to deal with.
 
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Prodromoi wrote:
nakedhobo wrote:
How would you feel if a company didn't ask for proof of ID and it was someone using your stolen credit card.

If I'd created and sent out a convenient little identity-theft-in-a-box package of scanned sensitive documents? i'd feel that I thoroughly deserved it...


And if someone hacked your information? Or obtained in some other way? Do you believe that scammers only obtain their information by intercepting such packages?
 
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nakedhobo wrote:
Prodromoi wrote:
nakedhobo wrote:
How would you feel if a company didn't ask for proof of ID and it was someone using your stolen credit card.

If I'd created and sent out a convenient little identity-theft-in-a-box package of scanned sensitive documents? i'd feel that I thoroughly deserved it...


And if someone hacked your information? Or obtained in some other way? Do you believe that scammers only obtain their information by intercepting such packages?

Which kind of makes the whole exercise of sending such information pointless - if it can be so easily reproduced what does it add to existing security methods?
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