Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

Conflict of Heroes: Storms of Steel! – Kursk 1943» Forums » General

Subject: Nitpicking on counters rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Ondřej Vašíček
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeasterday I saw the new posted counters. Are they the final ones?

Because I am looking forward to buy this game (Zitadele is my favourite ww2 operation and CoH system is good), I would like to know some designer's oppinions.

1) Why has KV1a AT factor of 15? It is even more than Panther has, but it has the same cannon as t34 or as KV1 in Awakening the bear...
2) I really like that panther has the same frontal armor and better AT factor than Tiger, but I wonder why has Panther (relatively fast tank with wide tracks) equal speed as other slow tanks - shouldn't it have the same speed as t34? Or is it because of "Ausf D" version of panther (siplified 'prone to breakdown' in early versions of Panther tank)?
3) Why both Panther and Tiger has the same frontal armor as t34? t34 had much thinner armor (about 60mm in comparision to tiger's 110mm and Panther's 80-100mm). Yes, t34 has sloped armor (but Panther too) and defense rating is not only armor, but still - shouldn't Tiger and Panther have 21 or 22? (I assume, that t34's increase in armor is due to its improvement against older versions of t34 portrayed in Awakening the bear)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Spyros Gkiouzepas
Greece
THESSALONIKI
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

KV1a IS different between CoH 1942-42 and 1943. It would be interesting to hear from Uwe about this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Carlton
Australia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah I noticed the exact same things - though I haven't played the first game just taking the stats from what I learnt from a few reviews.

Speed is not such a big deal - most tanks take a while to get up to top speed anyway and maybe terrain handling is a big part of it. The Panther had wide tracks but I'm pretty sure at this stage of the war it still had problems with mud etc. jamming up the complex road wheel arrangement. T-34 didn't have this problem. Likewise the Churchill was slow as a wet week but it could handle terrain that would stop most vehicles dead.

Biggest issues are the gun on the KV-1 and the armour on the T-34.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ondřej Vašíček
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
And not to forget:
I also hope, that there won't be much counters of PzIV Ausf F2 and there will be some counters of PzIV Ausf H, since PzIV F2 was relatively rare tank in summer of 1943 - only few of F2 and G versions of PzIV were built in 1942 and most of them were destroyed before Kursk operation. Most common version of PzIV in Kursk battle was Ausf H (with increased frontal armor and sideskirts).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Doug Cooley
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Me rocking out with my band, which you can hear at www.raindriver.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Keep in mind that the various counter values don't only reflect the hardware itself, but also the *use* of that hardware (tactics, combined arms, leadership, etc). The Red Army in 1943 was a much different institution than it had been in 1941, or even 1942. I can see how a given unit type would have learned from their mistakes and from experience.

Look at the difference a slightly larger calibre gun, various small improvements, and experience made to Sherman crews in Western Europe between D-Day and Cobra.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
uwe eickert
United States
Fremont
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Counter Stats
First, I want to apologize, I have no idea where that wierd counter came from. I panicked when I saw this, but luckily the printer had been sent the correct counter.
The stats for the KV1c (we have no KVIa in the Kursk game) are as follows:
Red FP = 6, Blue FP = 9, Front DR = 22, Side DR = 19. The front DR could have been 21, but my formulas nudged it up. But it does suffer in having high 5APs to fire and a range of 9.

Tiger 1e:
Red FP = 6, Blue FP = 12. Front DR = 20 (again, borderline could have been a 21).

The KV1c had a 140mm front armor with a 22 degree slope.
The Tiger 1e and Panther D about 130mm.
The T-34c about 90mm.

While working on the defense stats, I increased the T-34c due to its speed and the increased ranges that the Tigers and Panthers fired. The T-34 could just as well had a 19 front defense. The same goes for the KV1c, which had a rather low silouette for its heavy armor. The Germans still picked it off rather easily at longer distances due to their refined optics. So I had to balance the units relative to their overall field performance.

As for speed, most tanks moved at the same speed most of the time, because they had to stop everytime they fired and often infantry moved along side of them. But the KV1c has no movement bonus, the Tigers and Panthers 1 bonus track and the T-34 2 bonus tracks. But again, seldome did tanks move faster than 20kph over open terrain, which is about as fast as most of us ride a bicycle on a road.

Lastly, I will gladly send the entire counter sheets to anyone who would like to review and critique them!!! Better now than later.
Uwe
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wulf Corbett
Scotland
Shotts
Lanarkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the degign insight!
uweeickert wrote:
Lastly, I will gladly send the entire counter sheets to anyone who would like to review and critique them!!!
Any T35 on there?

...nah, thought not... cry
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
uwe eickert
United States
Fremont
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No, but we added T-70 and M3 Scounts.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Carlton
Australia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You rule Uwe!

Good to see the KV-1c getting a boost with all that extra plate they kept bolting on everywhere.

Any chance you could give some details on any of the more interesting AFV's that may (or may not) be on the sheet?

Elefants? German Captured Tanks? Lend Lease Shermans or Valentines?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
uwe eickert
United States
Fremont
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We concentrated on the southern flank of the German attack, since the battle was really fought quite differently on the two fronts. The elefants were on the northern flank. The southern flank had tons of Pz Grenadiers and captured soviet tanks used by the SS. So we do have German T-34s and Soviet lend lease Churchill MKIIIs. Some quite effective units are the M3 Scout and M3 APC, both mounted with 50 cal MGs. Some of the M3s are set up as anti-air capable, so will be of some worry for the Stukas and Hs129b.

There is soooo much in this coming game that we could not cover it all, so are thinking of just adding more counter sheets in the future along with another firefight book. That is Dana Lombardy's plan so far. We also decided to add some pure solo firefights to this game.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Carlton
Australia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hooray for the HS-129!

Lots of great info there, thanks Uwe.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ondřej Vašíček
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Uwe,
thanks for answer!

First, I must gladly say, that my major "problem" was solved. I cannot imagine to play myself a game, where KV1a is much better than Panther... The stats about KV1c are fine for me and I am happy to see, that it has even bigger DR.

About t34 - all my sources are saying, that most modern t34 with 76mm F34 canon has turret armor of 60-70mm:
http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php?op...

t34/85 had 90mm of steel in front of its turret, but this tank was not present in Kursk battle:
http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php?op...

all t34s had about 50mm in chasis (even t34/85) making them valnurable target even to weaker late-war german cannons (like KwK40).

I'd like to see t34 with defense of 19 (20 will by OK because I agree, that DR is not only armor, but also size, speed, etc.) and Tiger&Panther with 21, but if the defence ratings will remain as they are now, maybe some small house-rule will not break balance and solve my personal "feel" of the period.

The "speed of the Panther" was not a major issue - I was just currios about explaining why it is slower than t34 and I agree.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Hong
United States
San Diego
CA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
uweeickert wrote:
We also decided to add some pure solo firefights to this game.


Awesome. Cant wait.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
uwe eickert
United States
Fremont
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ondrej,
You read my mind. The T-34c has a 19DR. I was very tempted to drop it even lower, which I did for the T-34b to an 18DR. It is so difficult to model the Soviet tanks, since the pot iron they used was very porous, full of voids and cavitations.
The files that were sent to printer also have the Tigers and Panthers with 21 front DR. The counter files on the website are older.

Another stat that I wrestled with were the 50Cal and MG42 anti APC capability. The MG42 could never penetrate 12mm armor of an APG, but just the volumn of bullets hitting a lightly armored truck or scout vehicle was very unnerving. The 50 Cal could actually punch trough at times. So I gave the 50 cal a shorter range 6 and a blue 2FP and the MG42 a blue 1FP (along with normal red FP of course). This was a difficult decision.

Lastly, how to model the 50 cal agains buildings? They could just punch through most barn and peasant buildings in Russia. Much better than the lighter German ammo.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.