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Subject: Ominous signs regarding the future of Heroscape rss

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Brad Miller
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So yesterday I went out looking for a Fortress set to give to my son for his birthday. I had previously seen these at Fred Meyer, and so headed down there. Now one of my Fred Meyer's is undergoing renovation, so when I couldn't find it there, I didn't think too much about it. So I went to another nearby Fred Meyer. Hmmm, nothing Heroscape there anymore either.

Then I headed off to Target, as I know they sold Heroscape. Nothing.

Toys R Us is just across the street...nothing.

Finally found one Fortress set at a local game store, (out of the three I checked), but it was their last one, and they had two wave 8 sets (Marro Cavalry).

So this morning I do some looking online. Walmart, Target, Fred Meyer, Toys R Us. None have anything Heroscape.

Now while I know that there is a wave 9 scheduled to come out, the fact that these are no longer being carried by any of the major chains makes me think that the end is near...
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Todd Redden
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We've all known that for 2 years now. Pretty much surprised with the scheduled release of wave 9. Still, you can get most everything at housemousegames.com online, some stuff at funagain.com and other online resources. Also wondering what WotC will do with it now. The big box stores pretty much stated they were d/c'ing Heroscape. No more TRU either. WotC stated they were still hoping WalMart picked it up.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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HeroScape Doom & Gloom threads used to start 2-3 months after a new wave was released. Now we can do it 1 month before the new wave. This is progress.
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Richard Dewsbery
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It's definitely winding down from being the mass market game it was, available everywhere. The question is whether it will now get kicked to the kerb like many other WOTC games (they cancel pretty much everything that doesn't start with the word "Magic" as far as I can tell), or whether the hobby sales will be enough to keep it going.

The latest Wave is certainly the most complex, and should sell well to the fans for a number of reasons. Hopefully not "doom and gloom", just a different direction.
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Anders Pedersen
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Sphere wrote:
HeroScape Doom & Gloom threads used to start 2-3 months after a new wave was released. Now we can do it 1 month before the new wave. This is progress.

You are too generous...
The first doom and gloom speculation actually started 56 minutes after the announcement of the new wave hit Boardgamegeek. Take a look at the first reply here:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/395195


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Eric Ruhland
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tmredden wrote:
We've all known that for 2 years now. Pretty much surprised with the scheduled release of wave 9. Still, you can get most everything at housemousegames.com online, some stuff at funagain.com and other online resources. Also wondering what WotC will do with it now. The big box stores pretty much stated they were d/c'ing Heroscape. No more TRU either. WotC stated they were still hoping WalMart picked it up.
WalMart has picked it up some time ago now. No news here really. The other retailers haven't carried HS since before Wave 8 which sold very well without them thank you very much.
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Seth Owen
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I believe the point of moving the game to WOTC was to take advantage of their niche marketing expertise.

I don't expect we will see a lot of Heroscape at most of the bigger discounters, but it should be available from hobby stores and online retailers just like other WOTC items.

I don't think the game would have survived relying on the mass market. It's really a little too strategic for that demographic and I think it's a better match considering it a hobby game and marketin g it as one. Hasbro/AH/WOTC has maintained support for some lines over the long term (Axis & Allies, A&A Minis for example).
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Eirikr wrote:
tmredden wrote:
We've all known that for 2 years now. Pretty much surprised with the scheduled release of wave 9. Still, you can get most everything at housemousegames.com online, some stuff at funagain.com and other online resources. Also wondering what WotC will do with it now. The big box stores pretty much stated they were d/c'ing Heroscape. No more TRU either. WotC stated they were still hoping WalMart picked it up.
WalMart has picked it up some time ago now. No news here really. The other retailers haven't carried HS since before Wave 8 which sold very well without them thank you very much.


Your Wal-Marts carry Heroscape? Like Master Set Heroscape? Lucky!

No Wal-Mart in my area has stocked anything outside of the small expansions in a loooooooong time, and they don't always have those even.
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Tony C
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FWIW, I've seen Heroscape at the local FLGS, but the only time I've seen it in a 'regular' store was that two Walmarts had the Marvel set and about six boosters clearanced, and this was easily six months ago.
I definitely think it'll be a special-order or niche product.
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Seth Owen
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Wal-Mart and similar retailers are not set up to stock specialty lines of anything.

I'll bet if you collect Barbies you are in the same boat. Every so often you'll be able to pick up a Barbie at a good price, but if you are a serious collector of Barbie dolls you are going to get most of your dolls online or from specialty retailers.

Wal-Mart's distribution can't handle things like keeping older waves in stock, making sure there's a good balance of products or keeping up with new issues. Heroscape now comprises a fairly large number of different products. There are three different base sets, nine waves of small expansions, several waves of large figure packs and five waves of terrain packs. This is simply not the kind of product that you're going to see at a big general purpose discount retailer.
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Just watch the new expansion cards:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/blog.php?u=2

The new expansion clearly is directed to the hobby market and the Heroscape fans. I haven't seen so many words or abilities so complex in any other expansion. This means Heroscape is no longer considered "for everybody", it's now in the geek market, it appeals to geek interests and the designers/company/distributors know this.

You won't see Heroscape in Walmart or Toys R US anymore. Look in your average hobby store/comic shop/specialty store.

This was known from the moment Heroscape was moved to Wizards of the Coast...

Edit: missing link hehe...
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For me, this is what has killed my interest in acquiring more. I don't mind supporting a FLGS, but when the price difference for a master set is $10-$15 more at the FLGS than Wal-Mart or Target, and the boosters are a good $2-$5 more, I'm done with the market.

I understand that they can't get it for the same price, but it was the big-box stores prices that convinced me to get it in the first place; if they would never have sold it there, I would never have purchased it because it's not worth that extra $10 to me.
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Richard Dewsbery
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Except of course that most of us have *plenty* of Master Sets, and FLGSs aren't that much more expensive for boosters than the box-shifters. Of course, I say all that with the perspective of being from the UK, where Master Set One was once readily available but went ignored by everyone, and boosters have pretty much remained the province of special orders from specialist retailers in the UK (aside from inconsistent and occasional supplies to a few UK specialist shops). From the outside lookking in, the ideal solution always appeared to be to have the Master Sets in the big box-shifting retailers like Wal*mart and TRU, but to use the specialist stores to supply the boosters which were always going to be more attractive to the hobbyist fan. I understand that there are reasonably sound reasons for this never happening, though.
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The game's been out since 2004. What else still costs the same as in 2004? Inflation has been through the roof.

Having said that, Wave 9 of HeroScape is less than $40 at www.WargamersHeadquarters.com, and they charge $6.00 shipping anywhere in the US lower 48, free shipping above $100, and they generously support the HeroScape community. That's less than $12 a pack, less than $10 if you buy a lot (like me)

HeroScape has never been easier to get a hold of since WotC has taken over the reigns. Waves 2, 7 and 8 are all readily available, and wave 1 will be starting this week. By readdily available I mean that I've been able to find them at Walmarts in large quantities, but not at every Walmart, and any given Walmart that has Scape will usually just have (multiples of) a single wave. Some packs from wave 5 (not Soulborgs!), and all of waves 3 and 6 can also be found at WalMarts, but require significantly more searching.

Target and TRU have chosen to no longer carry HS, but there are rumours that Walmart might have something coming up for HeroScape (one of thoise in the know on Heroscapers asked the rethorical question: "why are walmarts stocking up on waves 9 and 1?" in such a way that it insinuated there might be bigger plans there) A major reprint and a new wave are certainly not signs of a game's demise. There are very definite signs that there is more HeroScape coming after wave 9 (amongst which concrete quotes from people in the know that they are working on something). What it is, we do not know.

HeroScape is in a tough spot, but has proven to be resilient in the past. I am hoping we will see a reprint of wave 4 before the end of the year (or at least an announcement about it) and I am thinking we might even see a new Master Set.
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A new, more general purpose Master set that included common squads would be nice. The first Master set had a good selection for introductory purposes, but allthose unique squads made multiple purchases less attractive. The second Master set had common squads, but the Marro-centric approach wasn't the best for brining in new players. Somehting that slpits the difference betwen these would be a good idea.

What puzzles me is why the Marvel Hersocape didn't do better.
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wargamer55 wrote:
A new, more general purpose Master set that included common squads would be nice. The first Master set had a good selection for introductory purposes, but allthose unique squads made multiple purchases less attractive. The second Master set had common squads, but the Marro-centric approach wasn't the best for brining in new players. Somehting that slpits the difference betwen these would be a good idea.

What puzzles me is why the Marvel Hersocape didn't do better.


Good points about the Master Sets. A nice variety of common squads would be more of an incentive to pick up a couple of copies as opposed to just one.

As for Marvel HS, the total lack of support in the form of booster packs certainly couldn't have helped. If you've got a pack of heroes and villains on the shelf next to the Marvel Conflict Begins set, that definitely would send the message that the conflict really is beginning.
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RDewsbery wrote:
Except of course that most of us have *plenty* of Master Sets, and FLGSs aren't that much more expensive for boosters than the box-shifters.

Not a lot, but $2-$5 adds up, and I thought the box-stores were already pushing it. $8 for 4 or 5 figures? They're decent quality, but it's a limiting factor for me. $10-$13 for 4 or 5 figures? No way, Jose.

Alas, my local Target hasn't carried this in a LONG time (they had the Marro master set, but it was Christmas time and my money was committed to buying stuff for my kids), and Wal-Mart is just selling some of the boosters I either already have or don't want.


I respect that FLGS can't get them for the same wholesale price, but to be honest, I don't think the price point is worth it anymore. Fortunately, I can still enjoy the figures I have all I want
 
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wargamer55 wrote:
What puzzles me is why the Marvel Hersocape didn't do better.


It doesn't puzzle me - the out of the box experience was lousy. Super powerful guys on a teensy map made for scenarios that amounted to just taking turns rolling the dice. Not much fun in that.


MeanBone wrote:
As for Marvel HS, the total lack of support in the form of booster packs certainly couldn't have helped.


If the master set would have flown off the shelves, the planned expansion would have followed. There weren't any expansions available when RotV was first released, but it was really good, therefore sales were good and expansions soon followed.
 
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sigmazero13 wrote:
RDewsbery wrote:
Except of course that most of us have *plenty* of Master Sets, and FLGSs aren't that much more expensive for boosters than the box-shifters.

Not a lot, but $2-$5 adds up, and I thought the box-stores were already pushing it. $8 for 4 or 5 figures? They're decent quality, but it's a limiting factor for me. $10-$13 for 4 or 5 figures? No way, Jose.

Alas, my local Target hasn't carried this in a LONG time (they had the Marro master set, but it was Christmas time and my money was committed to buying stuff for my kids), and Wal-Mart is just selling some of the boosters I either already have or don't want.


I respect that FLGS can't get them for the same wholesale price, but to be honest, I don't think the price point is worth it anymore. Fortunately, I can still enjoy the figures I have all I want :)

Common expansion packs usually contain 6 or 7 figures. Unique expansion packs often have 5 bigger heroes. The actual amount of packs that have 4 or less figures in it are few and far between, and usually one or more of those figures is rather big. I think the only two packs that are seriously expensive per figure are the Grok Riders and the Templar Knights, but the Templars are just about the coolest sculpts in the game so I don't even feel too bad about those either. In general I think the figures are priced decent, but the real savings is in the non-blind purchase model. There is absolutely NO cheaper miniatures game on the market to get into, and it's debatable whether there's a better game to get into.
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I'm a little puzzled by the price complaints.

These are painted miniatures, which are going to generally cost somewhere between $2 and $4 each no matter what. Heroscape figures compare preicewise with lines such as Axis & Allies miniatures, Star Wars miniatures, D&D minis, Dreamblade, Heroclix, etc.

Unpainted pewter models aren't exactly cheap. If you condiers the cost of paint and time they probably aren't cheaper at all.

For hobbyists with the time and talent, painting their own miniatures will result in better quality and more satisfaction. But the unpainted miniatures hobby has beena round for about a century and I don't see any hint that it's about to break out into some sort of mass popularity.

Painted toy soldiers have been around about as long, and even given their expense, have been more popular than unpainted. They have never been cheap, and I would guess that decent quality painted toy solderis are more affordable now than they ever were. (And whether the figure is the Hulk, some wizard, a Tiger tank, the Yamato or Sgt. Drake, for all practical purposes they are toy soldiers.)
 
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Sphere wrote:



MeanBone wrote:
As for Marvel HS, the total lack of support in the form of booster packs certainly couldn't have helped.


If the master set would have flown off the shelves, the planned expansion would have followed. There weren't any expansions available when RotV was first released, but it was really good, therefore sales were good and expansions soon followed.


Fair point, one good squad and one evil squad certainly would have helped Marvel:TCB -- even 3 cops and 3 thugs. I think they were counting too much on the license to sell it.

Still, if Hasbro believed in the license, expansion packs would have been a good selling point. Even a terrain pack with something like a bank vault, a squad of guards and a squad of robbers. Something to show that there was more to come.
 
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RobertDD wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
RDewsbery wrote:
Except of course that most of us have *plenty* of Master Sets, and FLGSs aren't that much more expensive for boosters than the box-shifters.

Not a lot, but $2-$5 adds up, and I thought the box-stores were already pushing it. $8 for 4 or 5 figures? They're decent quality, but it's a limiting factor for me. $10-$13 for 4 or 5 figures? No way, Jose.

Alas, my local Target hasn't carried this in a LONG time (they had the Marro master set, but it was Christmas time and my money was committed to buying stuff for my kids), and Wal-Mart is just selling some of the boosters I either already have or don't want.


I respect that FLGS can't get them for the same wholesale price, but to be honest, I don't think the price point is worth it anymore. Fortunately, I can still enjoy the figures I have all I want

Common expansion packs usually contain 6 or 7 figures. Unique expansion packs often have 5 bigger heroes. The actual amount of packs that have 4 or less figures in it are few and far between, and usually one or more of those figures is rather big. I think the only two packs that are seriously expensive per figure are the Grok Riders and the Templar Knights, but the Templars are just about the coolest sculpts in the game so I don't even feel too bad about those either. In general I think the figures are priced decent, but the real savings is in the non-blind purchase model. There is absolutely NO cheaper miniatures game on the market to get into, and it's debatable whether there's a better game to get into.

You're right, I was mis-remembering the numbers. I guess I may have been thinking "4 figures and crap". IE, usually the boosters tend to have one squad that I want, and another that I really had no desire to get (and rarely sees play, even with other people).

Frankly, I'd have much preferred boosters that cost about half of what they run, that has exactly ONE squad in it. That way, you don't pay for two squads when you only want one.

I'll concede that for painted minis, the price isn't that bad. But when I was paying $8 a pop before, and now I'm expected to pay $10-$13 a pop just because the geniuses at WotC decided that big-box stores weren't worth it? Maybe it's the price increase that bugs me more than the price itself. I don't know.

That, and the fact that I haven't seen a booster that catches my eye since like Wave 5.


Or maybe I'm just looking for reasons to whine about it subconsciously. Either way, I'm happy with what I have. Well, almost - I still want Major Q9.
 
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sigmazero13 wrote:
RobertDD wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
RDewsbery wrote:
Except of course that most of us have *plenty* of Master Sets, and FLGSs aren't that much more expensive for boosters than the box-shifters.

Not a lot, but $2-$5 adds up, and I thought the box-stores were already pushing it. $8 for 4 or 5 figures? They're decent quality, but it's a limiting factor for me. $10-$13 for 4 or 5 figures? No way, Jose.

Alas, my local Target hasn't carried this in a LONG time (they had the Marro master set, but it was Christmas time and my money was committed to buying stuff for my kids), and Wal-Mart is just selling some of the boosters I either already have or don't want.


I respect that FLGS can't get them for the same wholesale price, but to be honest, I don't think the price point is worth it anymore. Fortunately, I can still enjoy the figures I have all I want :)

Common expansion packs usually contain 6 or 7 figures. Unique expansion packs often have 5 bigger heroes. The actual amount of packs that have 4 or less figures in it are few and far between, and usually one or more of those figures is rather big. I think the only two packs that are seriously expensive per figure are the Grok Riders and the Templar Knights, but the Templars are just about the coolest sculpts in the game so I don't even feel too bad about those either. In general I think the figures are priced decent, but the real savings is in the non-blind purchase model. There is absolutely NO cheaper miniatures game on the market to get into, and it's debatable whether there's a better game to get into.

You're right, I was mis-remembering the numbers. I guess I may have been thinking "4 figures and crap". IE, usually the boosters tend to have one squad that I want, and another that I really had no desire to get (and rarely sees play, even with other people).

Frankly, I'd have much preferred boosters that cost about half of what they run, that has exactly ONE squad in it. That way, you don't pay for two squads when you only want one.

I'll concede that for painted minis, the price isn't that bad. But when I was paying $8 a pop before, and now I'm expected to pay $10-$13 a pop just because the geniuses at WotC decided that big-box stores weren't worth it? Maybe it's the price increase that bugs me more than the price itself. I don't know.

That, and the fact that I haven't seen a booster that catches my eye since like Wave 5.


Or maybe I'm just looking for reasons to whine about it subconsciously. Either way, I'm happy with what I have. Well, almost - I still want Major Q9.

I've never been able to get boostyers for $8. Were they ever that cheap? My recollection was that the regular price always was about $10.

If boosters were packed in halves, single squad size, they'd cost more than $5, my guess is $7 or so, to account for the additional packaging. Also, there would be twice as many boosters in a wave (assuming the same amount of figures), which means twice the amount of SKU's, which is something retailers have issues with. More SKU's means more shelf space and more stock. The size of a booster was chosen to be cheap enough for an impulse buy/birthday present, while giving us good value.

Also notice that many commons in boosters have close card costs. HeroScape usually gets played in the 400 - 600 point army range. To make fun armies, and have all options, I want to own 200 points and at least 3 of every common, so I want 4 of a 50 point squad, and 3 of a 110 point squad. There are some exceptions, but as a general rule of thumb that works for me. Buying HeroScape I usually want the same amount of each squad in the pack. This rule doesn't work 100%, but it works often enough to make me think that the designers tought about this.

By the way, waves 6, 7 and 8 all had some great units, and you are missing out!
 
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MeanBone wrote:
wargamer55 wrote:
A new, more general purpose Master set that included common squads would be nice. The first Master set had a good selection for introductory purposes, but allthose unique squads made multiple purchases less attractive. The second Master set had common squads, but the Marro-centric approach wasn't the best for brining in new players. Somehting that slpits the difference betwen these would be a good idea.

What puzzles me is why the Marvel Hersocape didn't do better.


Good points about the Master Sets. A nice variety of common squads would be more of an incentive to pick up a couple of copies as opposed to just one.

As for Marvel HS, the total lack of support in the form of booster packs certainly couldn't have helped. If you've got a pack of heroes and villains on the shelf next to the Marvel Conflict Begins set, that definitely would send the message that the conflict really is beginning.

More than that, we've always wondered why they never split the starter minis and the terrain. Why can't you buy sets of just basic terrain? That's the only reason anybody would invest in multiple starter sets, and all those unique figures go pretty much to waste. They would have sold WAY MORE sets of basic terrain only.
 
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My Walmart still has quite a few of the waves plus the Marvel set. I've been waiting for months to go on clearance, but I expect it'll happen right after I move years from now.
 
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