Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

Merchant of Venus» Forums » General

Subject: Advice for making a high quality version of the "remake" edition rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Robert Sweeney
United States
Clinton Township
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
HauRuck wrote:
Assuming price is no object, what is the best way to go about having the components made / making them yourself?

Which things are best done professionally and where? Where can I just send the .bmp file and get a professional board sent back to me?

What other components make sense to have done for me vs. doing myself? I have a good inkjet photo printer but what is best done elsewhere?

What have others done?

Thanks for any tips. Merchant of Venus was one of my favorite games of the past!

PS. Can anyone send me a corrected v2 .bmp with the two map corrections already added?


Knowing my limitations with scissors and the like ... I intend to follow this post. Might do the same myself!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sterling Babcock
United States
Longmont
Colorado
flag msg tools
admin
Winkles is here to help!
badge
Please let me know how I can help you.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Probably best to read the other long thread about the remake.

Short answer:
* Color Laser prints ($30 or so)
* Map print from WalMart ($16)
* Wood from Casey's Wood ($30?)
* Premade board, or make your own ($20)
* Box, fabric cover, labels ($20?)
* Glue, punches, cutter, etc ($20)
* Time punching, cutting, assembly ($1000000000000000)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Kudzma
United States
Millsboro
Delaware
flag msg tools
designer
People are...
badge
SPOCKED!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Listen to Sterling on this one. He's the authority on the subject
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sterling Babcock
United States
Longmont
Colorado
flag msg tools
admin
Winkles is here to help!
badge
Please let me know how I can help you.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
HauRuck wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to just have a one-off mapboard made up by one of boardgame prototypers. Don't some of them do that for around $50 or so? I'm sure someone knows a print-on-demand source that will do that for a mapboard...
Sure. That is the $16 cost. That is only a very small part of the whole cost.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sterling Babcock
United States
Longmont
Colorado
flag msg tools
admin
Winkles is here to help!
badge
Please let me know how I can help you.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
HauRuck wrote:
Solamar wrote:
HauRuck wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to just have a one-off mapboard made up by one of boardgame prototypers. Don't some of them do that for around $50 or so? I'm sure someone knows a print-on-demand source that will do that for a mapboard...
Sure. That is the $16 cost. That is only a very small part of the whole cost.


I'm a bit confused. You listed Walmart next to the $16. Are you saying that walmart prints up a mounted mapboard for $16? What exactly is it made out of then?
You can print the map however you prefer. I was just pointing out one way I thought worked well.

When you order a 20" x 30" poster print what you get is a photographic quality print on matt paper rolled up in a tube. Yes, it is like normal photo paper you get pictures on, so figure that thickness. Now, you could either laminate it to make it durable, or mount it on posterboard, which I did and then cut it to make it foldable. You could do some sort of clear coat to protect it, but really I found the photograph to be fine for a surface. Oh, it might scratch one day, but then I could print it again.

You go to Walmart.com, go to the photo center, create an account, upload the image. (Hint: I could not get the file submission to work. I had to email it to the account.). Then you go to Photos -> Products -> Posters -> Single Image Posters -> click the album, continue, picture, continue, 20" x 30", add to cart. I see they have raised the price to 16.86. HINT: Set it up for delivery to your local walmart and pick it up. Shipping is free. One fun thing: I needed to print one up for someone else. I just had it delivered to THEIR Walmart in Maryland!

So, yes, you could order a pre mounted custom made board from someone if that works for you. I chose to go with a more homemade route.

HauRuck wrote:
And, more specifically, I was looking for info on which components overall make sense to not make myself but rather have made for me, with the utmost of quality in mind. Links very much appreciated.
Oh. Whoops. That was way beyond my budget. I hope someone can help you with that.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Heberer
United States
Lake Stevens
WA
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The trivial pursuit game has a board that is exactly 20x20. Printed the map in sections and glued it to the board. It worked really well, and I think the result is awesome except that I should have colored the board underneath before mounting on the creases. Since there is a tiny line that shows what was originally there (where the sections join) it is a little bit of a bummer.

But, all thrift stores have trivial pursuit in them. It's like a law or something. And the board size is perfect. I highly recommend it as a way to get a quality part at low, low cost.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
Abdullah Ibrahim - Water from an Ancient Well
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Solamar wrote:
Probably best to read the other long thread about the remake.

Short answer:
* Color Laser prints ($30 or so)
* Map print from WalMart ($16)
* Wood from Casey's Wood ($30?)
* Premade board, or make your own ($20)
* Box, fabric cover, labels ($20?)
* Glue, punches, cutter, etc ($20)
* Time punching, cutting, assembly ($1000000000000000)



I don't see anything there about sending a check to Rich Hamblen. Does that make anybody uncomfortable?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Geoff
United States
Kentucky
flag msg tools
I want to believe
badge
*distinctive theme song whistle*
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sphere wrote:
I don't see anything there about sending a check to Rich Hamblen. Does that make anybody uncomfortable?


Yes, it makes some people uncomfortable. This point has been expounded in numerous other out-of-print remake game threads. I see no reason to rehash that tired discussion again.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sterling Babcock
United States
Longmont
Colorado
flag msg tools
admin
Winkles is here to help!
badge
Please let me know how I can help you.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sphere wrote:
I don't see anything there about sending a check to Rich Hamblen. Does that make anybody uncomfortable?
That is a very good point. Personally, I already own the original Merchant of Venus.

Although if there was a method of compensating Richard Hamblen, I would love to do that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
Abdullah Ibrahim - Water from an Ancient Well
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
imyourskribe wrote:
Sphere wrote:
I don't see anything there about sending a check to Rich Hamblen. Does that make anybody uncomfortable?


Yes, it makes some people uncomfortable. This point has been expounded in numerous other out-of-print remake game threads. I see no reason to rehash that tired discussion again.


If it drums up a buck or two for the very talented man who designed the game, I think that's a very good reason.

Let me put it this way. In a listing of costs, if we have this:

Quote:
* Time punching, cutting, assembly ($1000000000000000)


Why should we not have this?

Quote:
* Contribution to designer for intelletual property ($??)


The first acknowledges that the gamer's time is worth something, while the second acknowledges that the designer's time was worth something too.


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Slev Sleddeddan
United Kingdom
Victoria Park
Manchester
flag msg tools
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
badge
Don't you open that trapdoor!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We should start a charity in his honour perchance, and we could all donate to that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Sweeney
United States
Clinton Township
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
At the risk of making myself unpopular - baloney. Do we send checks to the estate of Poe for continuing to read his works? How about Marconi? Edison?

Now while I agree that game designers probably do not make much for their efforts. (The following are my current perceptions of the status of the game and Mr Hamelins "stance" and if wrong, please advise me.] In this case, the rights were sold to a company that went out of business. No effort has been made to aid in the resurgance and/or redesign of the game. No effort has been made to answer questions about the game. It has been decided to let the game remain "orphaned" and not to work towards its re release. My current perception is that he actively opposes any "updating". People on this site have done a ton of work - "gratis". I would prefer to reward them rather than the original designed because at least they have decided to be a part of this game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Irving
United States
Salinas
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LimboLance wrote:
At the risk of making myself unpopular - baloney. Do we send checks to the estate of Poe for continuing to read his works? How about Marconi? Edison?


Copyright protects authors of creative works (including games) from having others copying (not reading or using) their work without their permission (with certain exception--including quoting their work for the purposes of review or response.)

Poe's works are in the public domain--Merchant of Venus is under copyright. Merchant of Venus will not be in the public domain until the copyright expires (which 70 years after the death of the author or 95 years after date of publication).
http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/public_domain/

Marconi's & Edison's work were protected by patents, which are different than copyright, and have since expired.

Quote:
Now while I agree that game designers probably do not make much for their efforts. (The following are my current perceptions of the status of the game and Mr Hamelins "stance" and if wrong, please advise me.]


Richard Hamblen has not posted to this thread. nor has his "stance" been made public on the issue anywhere else. He doesn't have to--that's simply the provisions US copyright law.

Quote:
In this case, the rights were sold to a company that went out of business.


The subsidiary (TAHGC) of the company who held the rights (Monarch-Avalon) was sold to another company (Hasbro) who retained the rights to Merchant of Venus. AFAIK. It is also possible that the rights have been resold to someone else or granted back to the designer.

If the rights holding company failed without a buyer and those rights were not sold, they would likely revert to the designer.

Quote:
No effort has been made to aid in the resurgance and/or redesign of the game. No effort has been made to answer questions about the game. It has been decided to let the game remain "orphaned" and not to work towards its re release. My current perception is that he actively opposes any "updating"


You have no way of knowing any of these statements to be true.

Even if ALL were true, that does not give anyone else the right to break a copyright.

Quote:
People on this site have done a ton of work - "gratis". I would prefer to reward them rather than the original designed because at least they have decided to be a part of this game.


It is the equivalent of going to a piece of property you don't own, yelling "I don't see anyone doing anything with this! I am going to take it! It's mine now!"

If the owners and/or the designer of Merchant of Venus have no objections, fine. But that's their choice to make.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Sweeney
United States
Clinton Township
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am not suggesting "breaking the copyright" - I am simply stating that if others expand, modify or otherwise create "add on's" - that does not mean the original author should garner a fee. If that were the case, no gaming magazine, web site or home made variant would ever be publishable. The idea that new authors, new artists and new ideas should somehow reflect wealth back to the original inventor is IMHO absurd.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
Abdullah Ibrahim - Water from an Ancient Well
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LimboLance wrote:
I am not suggesting "breaking the copyright" - I am simply stating that if others expand, modify or otherwise create "add on's" - that does not mean the original author should garner a fee. If that were the case, no gaming magazine, web site or home made variant would ever be publishable. The idea that new authors, new artists and new ideas should somehow reflect wealth back to the original inventor is IMHO absurd.


Sorry, but you don't get to decide for yourself what "breaks the copywrite" and what does not. That happens in a court of law.

What I see here is a full set of instructions for somebody to make a complete copy of the game for themself. I'm sure some will do that. And let's note that the first line of the first post starts off like this:

HauRuck wrote:
Assuming price is no object...


If I'm going to make my own copy of a game, and price is no object for me, I'm going to send the designer a little something. That's just me.

And if I'm also going to put out a list of all the things you can spend money on while making that cool game, I'm going to throw in one line suggesting that you throw the designer a bone. I don't think that would freak people out if they didn't feel guilty at some level.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Irving
United States
Salinas
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LimboLance wrote:
I am not suggesting "breaking the copyright" -


I hear some hasty steps of back tracking right now.

Quote:
I am simply stating that if others expand, modify or otherwise create "add on's" - that does not mean the original author should garner a fee. If that were the case, no gaming magazine, web site or home made variant would ever be publishable.


A) We are talking an entire copy of the game--not an "add-on".
B) Variants published in magazines almost always have the permission of the designer or publisher. (Often provided by the designer or publisher themselves.)
C) Derivative Works (like self published variants that might be posted on a website) are a gray area--but usually they are OK if neither original artwork/components nor original rules are copied.

Specifically, there is a copyright law exemption allowing "The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work." A self published game variant in no way detracts from the "potential market for or value"--In fact, it probably increases it, because you may need to have the game in order to use the variant.

A complete copy of the game does reduce the potential market for future publication of that game.

I, personally, give credit to the original copyright holders in any game variant I have designed.

Quote:
The idea that new authors, new artists and new ideas should somehow reflect wealth back to the original inventor is IMHO absurd.


Permission is required, not payment, under the law.

Under common decency and morality, you should anyway.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Heberer
United States
Lake Stevens
WA
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I hear a lot of legal grumbling from people and I am a little confused. The only thing copyrighted is the rules for this game. You cannot copyright the game, and all the images that you see here to create your own copy of this game have are under no copyright protection. Legally speaking, as I understand copyright law, the only way to violate the copyright here is to copy the rules text exactly, or close enough to recognizable as the previous work. The rules are available either here or somewhere else on the net, so there is the possibility. You probably can violate the trademark of Merchant of Venus, if it was registered, since the files here tell you how to make a Merchant of Venus game. But no one ever talks about trademarks.

I get very tired of hearing people accusing others of criminal acts without a basis to do so. Who here slinging around such lofty and noble thoughts is a lawyer? Who is the representative of Hasbro? Why are you crapping on someone's thread?

If you feel like the creator of the game deserves some love for creating the game, then set up a cyberbegging place where you can get donations. But almost certainly they sold the rights to someone, who then sold it to someone and eventually it's held by Hasbro. Shouldn't you be crying to recompensate them?

Personally, I think it's sad that I had to put all the time and effort into this making a version of this game. I had never played, and wanted to give it a shot. I found it really long for the amount of fun I got out of it, so now I'm left with a fairly nice set that I almost certainly won't play. If I had just bought a copy second hand, I would have been able to trade or sell the game and recoup some of my losses. But either way, the author and holder of the rights to the game wouldn't have seen a dime. So I don't even find these arguments appealing to my sense of morality.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Slev Sleddeddan
United Kingdom
Victoria Park
Manchester
flag msg tools
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
badge
Don't you open that trapdoor!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Most of the people who are "for" giving some moneys simply want to prop the creator. It's not about the legality, only a bit about the morality, and mostly about being nice.

Most of the people "against" are looking at it in a legal sense. The US laws this would have been copyrighted under mean what we are doing is not illegal. The Trademark has likely lapsed by now, and only prevents commercial use anyway.

This is then an argument at cross purposes between "It would be nice to give Mr Hamblin a kick-back" and "what we are doing is perfectly legitinate".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Heberer
United States
Lake Stevens
WA
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree that it would be nice to give a kick back to the creator of the game. I disagree that it's moral to do so, as that implies to me that second hand sales without giving some kick back to the author or playing someone else's game is immoral. But it is a nice thing to do, giving someone money is almost always a nice thing to do.

I wouldn't go out of my way to be nice in this case though. And as the last post says, dude is hard to find, no?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Slev Sleddeddan
United Kingdom
Victoria Park
Manchester
flag msg tools
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
badge
Don't you open that trapdoor!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
someotherguy wrote:
Copyright is immediate and automatic, you do not need to "register" a copyright. As soon as the graphic of the map was created, the creator owned the copyright (but likely contractually transferred that copyright to the original publisher for a fee). Copying the map is a violation of copyright, though if you do it for your own use, I don't know how significant it is. If it's actionable, I don't see what the copyright owner would gain from enforcing the copyright legally.


AFAIAA, that's not quite right, as in many jurisdictions, copyright is not enforceable without either a registered document or a "Poor Man's Copy" to prove you hvae the copyright.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.