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Subject: Obama says "Dinosaurs too big to fail!" rss

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Does it not bother you folks even a little bit that we are being undermined daily by the Administration's willingness to violate the rule of law, dismiss capitalism, indebt taxpayers by spending OUR money to take over auto makers and banks... and possibly newspapers?

No, instead you want to have more useless debates over God and abortion. All while we are slowly being driven, like sheep, towards a new era of government ownership, control and intervention in the primary stuff that makes our economy work.

This whole Chrysler thing is clearly a wholesale dismissal of legal debtors and a favored position to the UAW and, for fucks sake! FIAT!

Fiat? How do they rate getting a share of the assets for nary a dime? And when did we pass new laws that allow the White House to tell primary debt holders that they are no longer primary?

Did you Obama-drones vote for that? Do you like it?

How about the climate this creates for new investment? Looking at this deal wouldn't you imagine any foreign or American investor is going to now consider that if they invest in an American corporation... as a primary lender... that should things get tough Obama may just swoop in, tell them they are now 3rd, 4th, 5th or lower in line... and give their LEGAL assets to some favored political fat cat? Or just take it... with American tax dollars... and appoint their own execs?

Now, as of today, GM's bankruptcy filing will put the... *cough*... American taxpayer (read: Obama Administration) as 50% shareholder in GM.

This is a total crock of shit. While I thought GW Bush was a creep for his fiscal errors and for TARP I.... I am convinced that Obama is a power-hungry despot who is wielding his office in order to shore up a new nanny-state and drive America towards a one-party political scene.

As I mentioned a month ago... Kerry is still yapping about bailing out the NYTs and the Boston Globe.... giving them tax-free status, and most likely a billion or two.

Since I figure almost every single Obama-Zombie here in RSP is also an outspoken proponent of evolution and natural selection then you guys... even those who voted for the new King of America... ought to be up in arms, marching in the streets to put a stop to this insanity. Let nature take it's course. Natural selection, if it's for really reals, ought to work in the marketplace as well. Agreed? If not, then you are not really a believer. Perhaps, had Obama and his millions of cloned voters been around 65 million years ago there would have been a dinosaur bail out too. Except that if we'd had that, then we'd have no oil.

Okay. Time for you sheeples to go back to debating abortion, God, atheism and other unsolvables while your Chosen One finishes the job of razing the American economy.
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I did not read your usual Obama rant but I absolutely love the title
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Scott Russell
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I do worry about how arbitrarily "unsecuring" the secured lenders will affect future loans to all businesses.
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HIS will be done.
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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It seems that this administration believes that if the U.S. automakers are allowed to fail, that they will cause long lasting extreme hardship to millions of U.S. citizens. It also seems to believe that by propping them up and speeding their recovery through bankruptcy, some sort of industry will be saved at the end, thereby lessening the impact. Millions will still lose their jobs, standards of livings are going to drop. These moves are nothing more than damage control. I, personally, don't see some over arching power grab. What does owning a car company get the government as far as power goes? If it gave anything, other investors would be lining up to make the deal first.

I just don't see the fear-everything-that-even-remotely-resembles-socialism angle here. I think it is good-intentioned damage control and that is it. You might not agree on the methods, but the only other alternative is to make many more families suffer by allowing the companies to disintegrate. Really, when these dinosaurs fall they don't kill just themselves, but everyone they fall on also.

The lesson I hope people take from this, and they won't, is that allowing a corporation to get so huge that we are this dependent on its survival for our society to function is very, very bad. the survival of certain corporations have become a matter of National Security and that is just plain wrong.
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CHAPEL
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DWTripp wrote:
...finishes the job of razing the American economy.


Are you not paying attention? The economy is on the rise. But keep onranting, even though your listeners will dwindle as the years go on.
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Since I am not allowed to vote in the US (you bastards!) I have mixed feelings on thjis (ok, mostly bad). Canada is giving another chunk of cash to bail out GM and Chrysler here as well, and it really bothers me. I don't see what we, as Canadians, gain by purchasing a failing company.

Magna International (a Canadian Auto parts manufacturer) is also picking at the bones. They are in the process of purchasing Opel from what is left of GM, aided by Russian banks...
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MWChapel wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
...finishes the job of razing the American economy.


Are you not paying attention? The economy is on the rise. But keep onranting, even though your listeners will dwindle as the years go on.


The economy is? That depends somewhat on what indicators you look at -- the government had a hell of a time selling debt last Wednesday, causing mortgage rates to go up. We locked in last Monday at 5% -- this Monday they are 5.6% at our bank. By most reports, unemployment is getting ready to usher in a new wave of foreclosures.

Wall St. is doing good, but the everyday man is still struggling. I don't mean to sound doomerish, but it is good not to be Pollyanna either.



DW -- it is a classic distraction, in my opinion. Get people concerned about emotional issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) and it is easier to hijack their economic interests. I think a quite good book is "What's the Matter with Kansas" -- the author's thesis is similar to your rant and discusses the disservice the GOP has done to the average Kansans fiscal interests.

ZELVIS 2012!!!!
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TheChin!

Seeing as how your response was reasoned and not the mindless drooling of a "follower" I reckon it's a good one.

Quote:
that they will cause long lasting extreme hardship to millions of U.S. citizens.


It's hard to argue that this isn't already the case. Despite the GM and Chrysler deals. Read a little further... even with the BK and Obama-driven changes in both deals, job losses will be staggering. GM is closing plants anyway. So is Chrysler. With or without taxpayer money being used to buy portions of the industries.

Quote:
I, personally, don't see some over arching power grab


Perspective I guess. Why does the UAW deserve to be put in line ahead of secured debt holders? What are the voting proclivities of the UAW?

Quote:

allowing a corporation to get so huge that we are this dependent on its survival for our society to function is very, very bad. the survival of certain corporations have become a matter of National Security and that is just plain wrong.


Allowing? Who's allowing it? The free market? This isn't a monopoly. There are unions in place. In addition there are other auto makers that aren't broke and are employing people and turning a buck.

I suppose it really boils down to kool-aid, maybe not for you, but for the Chapels and Vans out there. Obama is their guy and if he violates the law and unsecures legal debt holders (effectively stealing their assets and giving them to others) then it's okay because it's their guy doing it.

Chapel seems thrilled with the economy because the market is up today. Well, so are fuel prices. In addition, so are interest rates going up. In fact, the media glossed over the housing story last week by announcing only that home sales rose a bit... not covering in detail the reality that those sales were driven by an average 15% drop in prices.

I'm not concerned about America going dark and infrastructure failing. What amazes me is that so many otherwise smart people are ignoring the clear illegalities taking place because of their partisanship and personal ideology.

So, is it okay for the President to ignore the law and take things from one group so he can give them to another group?

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Drew1365 wrote:

The amusing part is that the new self-ascended CEO of GM Barack Obama hasn't a clue how to actually run a for-profit business. He only knows how to suck off the taxpayer. There's not a corporation in America who would hire him as an executive, which is what we were saying all through the last months of Campaign '08.


We can organize some communities and get some real solutions to these hard problems. Frankly, I fail to see what your hang-up is......
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This is more about the Unions than it is anything else.

The amount of money being shoved about here is peanuts compared to what we've spent on the banks.

Not saying I disagree (or agree) with the automotive bailout (Darilian's quick opinion- The GM bailout screws Ford, which IS doing well), just saying that this is a shadowplay about political patronage and power more than it's a discussion about the government's role in helping buisness in this country.

I guess you have to be able to deliver a block of votes to the Administration to be worthy of gettng a bailout in this country. Oh wait, the stimulus package will act like a tide to 'lift all boats'. Haven't I heard that before, from the other side? *LOL*

What goes around...

Darilian
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Dwayne Hendrickson
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Since I have heard some rumblings about more retroactive taxes, I am assuming that these taxes will be spent to help (retroactively, of course) other businesses that were too big to fail. Therefore, I am going to heavily invest in saddles, buggywhips, dirigibles, and leeches (for medical bleeding of course).

All of these business's 'failed' because of market forces, but it appears that they will be propped up and brought back to live.

VIVA LA ZOMBIE BUSINESS MODEL!!!!
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okiedokie wrote:
Since I have heard some rumblings about more retroactive taxes, I am assuming that these taxes will be spent to help (retroactively, of course) other businesses that were too big to fail. Therefore, I am going to heavily invest in saddles, buggywhips, dirigibles, and leeches (for medical bleeding of course).

All of these business's 'failed' because of market forces, but it appears that they will be propped up and brought back to live.

VIVA LA ZOMBIE BUSINESS MODEL!!!!


Only for non-believers.

Sí, se puede.
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Isaac Citrom
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Tripp, I'm not sure that your analogy to natural selection is apt. I for one am quite happy that we humans have removed ourselves to an extent from nature. I don't want to be a meal for a cougar. And, if the survival of the fittest were our mantra, the infirm, sick, blind, retarded, etc. would be at every burly guy's mercy, not to mention most women and children. Yes, I believe in the theory of evolution. No, I'm quite pleased that we have removed ourselves from its grasp.


Every day, as I get older (I just celebrated my 29th birthday for the 15th time now), my social world view draws closer and closer to that of GAWD's. I am firmly convinced that communism does not work. There must be a practical (money) incentive to motivate people to invent, create and do well. Said differently, in an environment of scarcity (not everyone can have a yacht), there must be a mechanism whereby someone can see his way through to better security and luxury. However, the current environment of unbelievably extreme greed is beyond the pale.

As such, the question is often thrown back at me as how I imagine mandating the level of profit. I'm not sure but I'm also convinced (inductively) that it is possible. My oft helpful friend in the wings remains, "I'm not sure how to define porn but I know it when I see it." Meaning, because there may not be an absolutely precise way of defining enough profit does not mean that we cannot use our judgment to come close, as we have done in plenty of other areas of life.

The European method is heavy taxation which pays for cradle-to-grave social security. For example, in Holland, with some caveats, basically your pension is what you normally earned throughout your working life. Wealth, then, is defined as, once all the necessities of life have been taken acre of for everyone, whatever more you manage to earn is the level of luxury you can afford yourself. I'm not so sure that their method is sustainable. I'd like to see what's up in 50 more years.

What I am convinced of on the other hand is that literally billions of dollars in profit for individuals for orchestrating a deal is an obscenity in the face of Mankind. Executives earning "bonuses" in the hundreds of millions of dollars while people's lives are utterly destroyed by being laid off is cause for violent civil disobedience. How dare they, what khutzpah.

In the 80s it was junk bonds and leveraged buyouts. In the 90s it was dot-com. In the 2000s it is "investment vehicles". When you look at the details, whether it is Wall Street or big business, it is all about individuals in the know, playing with people's lives like so many bits on a board, and running legal scams such that they slice off for themselves outrageous sums of money siphoned off, one way or another, from the average Joe and his family.

Fifty thousand dollar toilet paper roll holders and whatnot, fine cognac and the good life--oops, fucked up the economy of the entire world; my bad. But, you gotta rescue us because if you don't, we (you) all burn.

I used to fall in line behind the Chicago Boys' view of capitalism and freedom. The trouble is not only is the proof not in the pudding, their method is like playing continually with a live grenade. Just how many more financial crises will it take before we either learn our lesson or the World blows up.

Yes, profit must be, yes luxury is good. But, if a company's survival is tantamount to life or death for all of us, then yes, it must be government controlled. By all means let the experts run it, but under "adult supervision". Wall Street and huge business must be in my opinion taken out of the hands of individuals with base human motivations.
.
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DWTripp wrote:
I am convinced that Obama is a power-hungry despot who is wielding his office in order to shore up a new nanny-state and drive America towards a one-party political scene.

Well, even though you're desperate to herald the demise of the rest of your economy, you appear to be single-handedly keeping the outlook pretty rosy for milliners that can work with aluminium-foil.
 
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Hey, Tripp -

I'm curious -
were you against the bailouts and government taking over business when Bush was doing it, or is your disdain solely because Obama can be labeled a "socialist" when his administration does it?

Personally, I see little difference between the 2 administration's approaches towards this economic disaster - they both played (are playing) the same hands, for the same exact stated reasons.

You think Obama is leading us towards a single-party FUTURE?

I think you should look around - in most respects, we're already there, man.
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Oh, so you actually think about what you are saying?
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vandemonium wrote:
HIS will be done.


In the U.S. and inside the beltway.

Give us our entitlements and bailouts.

Forgive us our debts as you help us buy our failed businesses.

Lead us not to fiscal responsibility but deliver us our stimulus packages.
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I'm pretty sure Tripp was despising Bush during Bailout I back in 2008.
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reapersaurus wrote:
Hey, Tripp -

I'm curious -
were you against the bailouts and government taking over business when Bush was doing it, or is your disdain solely because Obama can be labeled a "socialist" when his administration does it?

He says he was against it under Bush in his original post. Read it, or allow me to help:

Quote:
While I thought GW Bush was a creep for his fiscal errors and for TARP
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Condors! Condors are on the verge of extinction.

If Obama was to create a flock of condors on this island, you wouldn't have anything to say!
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DWTripp wrote:


Seeing as how your response was reasoned and not the mindless drooling of a "follower" I reckon it's a good one.

TheChin! wrote:
that they will cause long lasting extreme hardship to millions of U.S. citizens.


It's hard to argue that this isn't already the case. Despite the GM and Chrysler deals. Read a little further... even with the BK and Obama-driven changes in both deals, job losses will be staggering. GM is closing plants anyway. So is Chrysler. With or without taxpayer money being used to buy portions of the industries.


And that in the end is what really ticks me off about this whole situation. GM and Chrysler are going to have to close plants and fire thousands, setting off an Armageddon like chain-reaction of failures among their supplier base and others, even if they don't get a single dime from the gov't.

So why is all this money is being spent, and this whole circus of chaos being put on? Warm fuzzies? Karma vouchers? Out of control hubris?

It just makes me sick to my stomach every time I see the headlines.
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(Okay, now that I've made my pithy comment, I suppose I'll actually contribute to the thread.)

Both parties use social issues to distract people from issues like this, in part because they're important to people and in part because they're much easier to understand. Gay marriage can kick up a gut reaction in people one way or the other, but most people frankly haven't given more than a few minutes thought, if that, to free markets, socialism, and the infinite gradations between the two.

To answer the "what do you Obama voters think about this question more directly," I am not happy that he's doing this, as I don't think this is a potentially catastrophic situation, and a potentially catastropnhic situation is the only time I'd approve of the government jumping in so directly in such a matter. I have been a bit disappointed by the administration's handling of fiscal matters thus far, particularly the way they're dealing with the economic crisis and the budget.

That said, I agree with TheChin! that I don't see this as a malevolent power grab, and I think the cries that "zomg Obama is a socialist" and is using this as some sort of overarching socialize-the-country scheme is equally distracting as the social issues. Unnecessary meddling in an economic crisis perhaps, but not some demoniacal scheme.

As an Obama voter, I frankly wish he were focusing more on social issues (the Campaign-formerly-known-as-The War on Drugs, Don't Ask Don't Tell, etc.) and less on the economy.
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John W
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jarredscott78 wrote:
reapersaurus wrote:
Hey, Tripp -

I'm curious -
were you against the bailouts and government taking over business when Bush was doing it, or is your disdain solely because Obama can be labeled a "socialist" when his administration does it?

He says he was against it under Bush in his original post. Read it, or allow me to help:

Quote:
While I thought GW Bush was a creep for his fiscal errors and for TARP

I read that, but it was a dodge in the OP, that missed the point :

Obama is simply continuing the exact same approach towards these failed corporations as Bush did.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
Does it not bother you folks even a little bit that we are ... take over auto makers and banks... and possibly newspapers?
Not even a little.

Quote:
Did you Obama-drones vote for that? Do you like it?
Yep and yep.

Quote:
While I thought GW Bush was a creep for his fiscal errors and for TARP I.... I am convinced that Obama is a power-hungry despot who is wielding his office in order to shore up a new nanny-state
By that, do you mean that we'll be taken care of? If so, that's good. One big happy family. It takes a village. All for one and one for all. Ah, the glory days.

Quote:
Since I figure almost every single Obama-Zombie here in RSP is also an outspoken proponent of evolution and natural selection then you guys... even those who voted for the new King of America... ought to be up in arms, marching in the streets to put a stop to this insanity.
Why? What does long term natural evolution have to do with people being greedy or sharing the wealth? Some people try to put a natural law on unnatural things (like money, thought, ideals, etc). Doesn't work that way.
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Quote:
Obama is simply continuing the exact same approach towards these failed corporations as Bush did.


Whut?

The exact same approach?

Hardly. Bush and his congress full of RINO's were economic dumbasses. I hated... fucking hated... the abandonment of conservative fiscal responsibility by them. I have written about it often here in RSP and that is a matter of record.

But to suggest that indebting our nation to the staggering... unbelievable... nigh on insurmountable levels of debt that the current President has done with his congress full of DINO's is the same is absurd.

Bush allowed and encouraged stupid and dangerous fiscal policies. Obama is purposely conducting an economic program that is criminal and unrelentingly harmful to our future for decades to come. It's NOT LEGAL to simply use your office to remove legal debt holders from their rightful assets and position and give those assets and positions in the chain to a politically allied special interest group.

As much as I cringed at Bush's economic idiocy... this Obama guy makes him look like a guy stealing penny candy. And you think that crime is the same as the guy robbing the bank and shooting a couple of security guards just to get his point across?

Hey... if memory serves me, Obama ran on "Hope and Change".

Who's the lying piece of shit now?

*** Stay tuned ***

1. I'll mention it again - commercial mortgage crisis
2. Gasoline back over $3 a gallon
3. Newspaper bail out
4. VAT tax (figure 10-15%)
5. Cap and Trade - $3500 per year, per citizen
6. Bail out of California - $50 Billion and up after dust settles
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