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Subject: 20th Year Anniversary of Tienanmen Square rss

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June 4, 1989.



A sobering website. "Terrorists" are amateurs.
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Victor Watrous
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Wow! 20 years already. When this occurred I was a few months from finishing my enlistment in the Navy. It was exciting to witness and to think that China might free itself from communism.

Power to the People!
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from the Latest News window of MediaCoder

In memory of those sacrificed their young lives to the democracy on the acient land 20 years ago!
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Scott Russell
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It's ok, they are still buying our bonds, no point in making a fuss.blush
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Chinese Swarm Tienanmen Square to Bar Protests

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James King
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One Sobering, Startling & Outrageous Footnote to the Tienanmen Square Massacre: By mid-summer 1989, we learned that despite all his public condemnations of the Communist Chinese leaders' killing those students in Tienanmen Square, then-President George H.W. Bush had dispatched his emissary, Brent Scocroft, to China NOT to deliver a sterner warning BUT to kowtow before the Chinese Communist leaders and reassure them that all those public condemnations that President Bush had been making about them was strictly for U.S. public consumption and that they shouldn't take it too personally!

This news earned then-President Bush an "Outrage of the Week" nomination by Time magazine's Margaret Carlson on CNN's "Washington Gang" news-discussion talk show (where I myself first learned about it).

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James King
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Next Tuesday night, June 9th, PBS's Frontline will be investigating what ever happened to that lone Chinese Guy who stood steadfast in the streets blocking that line of Chinese tanks.

Check your local listings for days, times and channels.
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James King
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qzhdad wrote:
It's ok, they are still buying our bonds, no point in making a fuss.blush

Geez, what a godawful thing to say on the 20th Anniversary of the Tienanmen Square Massacre!

(But then again, since it's just Scott Russell being Scott Russell, go figure, huh?)
 
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William Boykin
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
qzhdad wrote:
It's ok, they are still buying our bonds, no point in making a fuss.blush

Geez, what a godawful thing to say on the 20th Anniversary of the Tienanmen Square Massacre!

(But then again, since it's just Scott Russell being Scott Russell, go figure, huh?)


You do understand what sarcasm means, don't you?

Darilian
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
One Sobering, Startling & Outrageous Footnote to the Tienanmen Square Massacre: By mid-summer 1989, we learned that despite all his public condemnations of the Communist Chinese leaders' killing those students in Tienanmen Square, then-President George H.W. Bush had dispatched his emissary, Brent Scocroft, to China NOT to deliver a sterner warning BUT to kowtow before the Chinese Communist leaders and reassure them that all those public condemnations that President Bush had been making about them was strictly for U.S. public consumption and that they shouldn't take it too personally!

This news earned then-President Bush an "Outrage of the Week" nomination by Time magazine's Margaret Carlson on CNN's "Washington Gang" news-discussion talk show (where I myself first learned about it).



Why not go to DDJ's thread on Elliot Abrams doing the same thing under the George W. Bush administration with Israel and the settlements?

I'm sure between the two of you, you'll be able to work out some of that faux-outrage that seems to be bothering you.

Darilian
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
qzhdad wrote:
It's ok, they are still buying our bonds, no point in making a fuss.blush

Geez, what a godawful thing to say on the 20th Anniversary of the Tienanmen Square Massacre!

(But then again, since it's just Scott Russell being Scott Russell, go figure, huh?)


Nobody better for me to be!

I bet most here understood my post as intended.

Unfortunately, you are, as usual, demonstrating your reading comprehension.

And, I'll leave you a point to ponder. Is it worse to lament our (US) moral courage in confronting China (as I did, since you missed the subtext) or to wring your hands and say, isn't that awful?
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qzhdad wrote:


And, I'll leave you a point to ponder. Is it worse to lament our (US) moral courage in confronting China (as I did, since you missed the subtext) or to wring your hands and say, isn't that awful?


The latter.

I mean, otherwise, we might actually get off our asses and DO something.

I'd rather be lazy but still be able to get cheap plastic toys from China, rather than have to WORK and risk WalMart's prices going up.

Darilian
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James King
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qzhdad wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
qzhdad wrote:
It's ok, they are still buying our bonds, no point in making a fuss.blush

Geez, what a godawful thing to say on the 20th Anniversary of the Tienanmen Square Massacre!

(But then again, since it's just Scott Russell being Scott Russell, go figure, huh?)


Nobody better for me to be!

I bet most here understood my post as intended.

Unfortunately, you are, as usual, demonstrating your reading comprehension.

And, I'll leave you a point to ponder. Is it worse to lament our (US) moral courage in confronting China (as I did, since you missed the subtext) or to wring your hands and say, isn't that awful?

It's godawful that you aren't outraged that instead of confronting the Communist Chinese leaders at the very time during and after the Tienanmen Square Massacre, then-President George H.W. Bush was kowtowing to those murderous Chinese leaders in the worst sort of way that not only enabled their totalitarian behavior but also encouraged it all the moreso.

Moreover, did you actually think that China's hosting of the 2008 Olympics and its spectacular pre- and post-Olympics shows were meant as a mere goodwill gesture?

Our observance today of the 20th Anniversary Memorial of the Tienanmen Square Massacre should mark a break with that China-coddling past and we should allign our nation's policies with those countries who pursue peace, human rights, democracy, free elections, sound economic policies and mutual co-existence. We should make greater efforts to stop feeding the Dragon.
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:


Our observance today of the 20th Anniversary Memorial of the Tienanmen Square Massacre should mark a break with that China-coddling past and we should allign our nation's policies with those countries who pursue peace, human rights, democracy, free elections, sound economic policies and mutual co-existence. We should make greater efforts to stop feeding the Dragon.


Ok, I'll bite.

What do we do about N. Korea then? For if we alienate the Chinese, we lose any leverage that we might have with N. Korea and their nuclear program.

Are you willing to accept, as a CERTAINTY, that N. Korea will have both nuclear weapons and a rudimentary intercontinental missile in the next 10 years, as the cost for making a break with China?

If you are, bully for you then. You're consistent.

Darilian
 
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James King
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Darilian wrote:
qzhdad wrote:


And, I'll leave you a point to ponder. Is it worse to lament our (US) moral courage in confronting China (as I did, since you missed the subtext) or to wring your hands and say, isn't that awful?


The latter.

I mean, otherwise, we might actually get off our asses and DO something.

I'd rather be lazy but still be able to get cheap plastic toys from China, rather than have to WORK and risk WalMart's prices going up.

Since Wal-Mart had actually encouraged U.S. manufacturers to send their production overseas to China to take advantage of their slave wages, I'm not at all edified by that disingenuous and misleading comparision.

That in essence meant terminating manufacturing jobs for Americans and outsourcing their jobs overseas.

The reason we aren't trying to taunt or challenge the Dragon is because not only are they supporting our economy (for now) but also there are Americans who have stock in U.S. companies that have moved their production to China. In essence, they're profitting from putting fellow Americans out of work.

Surely, Darilian, you aren't one of those folks who have stock in companies that have moved their production to China, are you?
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William Boykin
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Darilian wrote:
qzhdad wrote:


And, I'll leave you a point to ponder. Is it worse to lament our (US) moral courage in confronting China (as I did, since you missed the subtext) or to wring your hands and say, isn't that awful?


The latter.

I mean, otherwise, we might actually get off our asses and DO something.

I'd rather be lazy but still be able to get cheap plastic toys from China, rather than have to WORK and risk WalMart's prices going up.

Since Wal-Mart had actually encouraged U.S. manufacturers to send their production overseas to China to take advantage of their slave wages, I'm not at all edified by that disingenuous and misleading comparision.

That in essence meant terminating manufacturing jobs for Americans and outsourcing their jobs overseas.

The reason we aren't trying to taunt or challenge the Dragon is because not only are they supporting our economy (for now) but also there are Americans who have stock in U.S. companies that have moved their production to China. In essence, they're profitting from putting fellow Americans out of work.

Surely, Darilian, you aren't one of those folks who have stock in companies that have moved their production to China, are you?



You REALLY need to work on your ability to detect sarcasm on the internet, my boy.

Darilian
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James King
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Darilian wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:


Our observance today of the 20th Anniversary Memorial of the Tienanmen Square Massacre should mark a break with that China-coddling past and we should allign our nation's policies with those countries who pursue peace, human rights, democracy, free elections, sound economic policies and mutual co-existence. We should make greater efforts to stop feeding the Dragon.


Ok, I'll bite.

What do we do about N. Korea then? For if we alienate the Chinese, we lose any leverage that we might have with N. Korea and their nuclear program.

If China isn't alarmed about those developments enough to already have taken out Koren leader Kim and his regime, then we shouldn't over-react to every provocation that the North Korean regime commits. The truth is that the nuclear Pandora's box has already been opened and the Genie has long since been out of the bottle in Pakistan, India, Israel, South Africa, and Iran.

By not over-reacting to North Korea, we make our nation more invulnerable to having to be beholden to China much less to begging China to use their leverage against North Korea. For you see, China has richly profitted from this USA-versus-North Korea situation in this way for far too long already. Once they see they couldn't get any more exploitative mileage out of our knee-jerk reactions to every North Korea provocation, China will probably be more predisposed to laying the law down to Kim through back channels if not through more overt means.


Darilian wrote:
Are you willing to accept, as a CERTAINTY, that N. Korea will have both nuclear weapons and a rudimentary intercontinental missile in the next 10 years, as the cost for making a break with China?

Again, if China isn't concerned about the consequences of Kim's program, then we should not be moreso. After all, do you actually think China would permit us to bomb North Korea and risk releasing nuclear raditation and/or fallout to waft its way back over neighboring Chinese mainland?


Darilian wrote:
If you are, bully for you then. You're consistent.

As long as the U.S. kowtows to China, we're in essence volunteering all too willingly to continue to be China's bitch to be further used and abused.

In the meantime, though, you might wanna consider checking out a non-fiction book entitled "Feeding The Dragon" which will better help ya understand where I'm coming from.
 
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So you're ok with a Nuclear North Korea, if the cost to get rid of those nukes is to engage with China?

Better to not engage with China, and have N. Korea with nukes, than otherwise?

Just want to be clear.

Darilian
 
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Darilian wrote:
So you're ok with a Nuclear North Korea, if the cost to get rid of those nukes is to engage with China?

Better to not engage with China, and have N. Korea with nukes, than otherwise?

Just want to be clear.

I'm not sure I can reply to your satisfaction until you've clearly and unambiguously clarified what you mean exactly 0in both instances above where you use the term "to engage with."

After all, I haven't advocated breaking off diplomatic ties with China. I've advocated a more pragmatic position which says the U.S. should not subserviently defer or kowtow to China but deal with China as we would any other developed country (not playing favorites) and not turn a blind eye or deaf ear to its travesties, hurman-rights abuses, economic abuses, etc.

That's the only face-saving way to humble a China which is already aspiring to become the #1 World Power and developing expansionist (i.e. imperial) goals quite typical of totalitarian regimes. (And I'm not just talking about the Moon, either.)
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James King
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Darilian wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Darilian wrote:
qzhdad wrote:


And, I'll leave you a point to ponder. Is it worse to lament our (US) moral courage in confronting China (as I did, since you missed the subtext) or to wring your hands and say, isn't that awful?


The latter.

I mean, otherwise, we might actually get off our asses and DO something.

I'd rather be lazy but still be able to get cheap plastic toys from China, rather than have to WORK and risk WalMart's prices going up.

Since Wal-Mart had actually encouraged U.S. manufacturers to send their production overseas to China to take advantage of their slave wages, I'm not at all edified by that disingenuous and misleading comparision.

That in essence meant terminating manufacturing jobs for Americans and outsourcing their jobs overseas.

The reason we aren't trying to taunt or challenge the Dragon is because not only are they supporting our economy (for now) but also there are Americans who have stock in U.S. companies that have moved their production to China. In essence, they're profitting from putting fellow Americans out of work.

Surely, Darilian, you aren't one of those folks who have stock in companies that have moved their production to China, are you?



You REALLY need to work on your ability to detect sarcasm on the internet, my boy.

That's a good excuse but a very poor reason to try to dodge answering a direct question.

In either case, if you choose to stand by that response, we'll just have to read between the lines.
 
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You do realize that "Tienanmen" is the Fresno spelling, right? The rest of the English-speaking world spells it "Tiananmen."
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
Darilian wrote:
So you're ok with a Nuclear North Korea, if the cost to get rid of those nukes is to engage with China?

Better to not engage with China, and have N. Korea with nukes, than otherwise?

Just want to be clear.

I'm not sure I can reply to your satisfaction until you've clearly and unambiguously clarified what you mean exactly 0in both instances above where you use the term "to engage with."

After all, I haven't advocated breaking off diplomatic ties with China. I've advocated a more pragmatic position which says the U.S. should not subserviently defer or kowtow to China but deal with China as we would any other developed country (not playing favorites) and not turn a blind eye or deaf ear to its travesties, hurman-rights abuses, economic abuses, etc.

That's the only face-saving way to humble a China which is already aspiring to become the #1 World Power and developing expansionist (i.e. imperial) goals quite typical of totalitarian regimes. (And I'm not just talking about the Moon, either.)


Thats clear enough.

Now that I have you where I want you, I'll let you stew a bit.

Darilian

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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:

Our observance today of the 20th Anniversary Memorial of the Tienanmen Square Massacre should mark a break with that China-coddling past and we should allign our nation's policies with those countries who pursue peace, human rights, democracy, free elections, sound economic policies and mutual co-existence. We should make greater efforts to stop feeding the Dragon.


I think you have completely failed to notice exactly how saturated this country is with Chinese nationals. Perhaps things aren't quite so dramatic in Shreveport (although I'd check the demographics on who exactly is eating all the frog legs lately), but here in tiny State College, Pennsylvania, there are already at least 20-25 mainland Chinese Academians running around our tennis courts on any given day. I expect the rest of the invasion force to land pretty damn soon--say 2019 at the latest. It's really all over but the wailing and dental gnashing. I read in a classified source that the first few waves of the invasion will arrive inside freight containers, so that nobody will bother with the ships. It's going to be nearly bloodless, but the fact of the matter is that the invaders' lousy driving skills will kill them off before we even have to lift a finger, so if you don't mind living with tons of dead communist Chinese boat people corpses on your city's streets, you really may not have too much to worry about. Unless you're Tim Robbins, because just like in that Mars movie, Tom Cruise is going to shoot him this time, too.
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ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
qzhdad wrote:
ShreveportLAGamer wrote:
qzhdad wrote:
It's ok, they are still buying our bonds, no point in making a fuss.:blush:

Geez, what a godawful thing to say on the 20th Anniversary of the Tienanmen Square Massacre!

(But then again, since it's just Scott Russell being Scott Russell, go figure, huh?)


Nobody better for me to be!

I bet most here understood my post as intended.

Unfortunately, you are, as usual, demonstrating your reading comprehension.

And, I'll leave you a point to ponder. Is it worse to lament our (US) moral courage in confronting China (as I did, since you missed the subtext) or to wring your hands and say, isn't that awful?

It's godawful that you aren't outraged that instead of confronting the Communist Chinese leaders at the very time during and after the Tienanmen Square Massacre, then-President George H.W. Bush was kowtowing to those murderous Chinese leaders in the worst sort of way that not only enabled their totalitarian behavior but also encouraged it all the moreso.

Moreover, did you actually think that China's hosting of the 2008 Olympics and its spectacular pre- and post-Olympics shows were meant as a mere goodwill gesture?

Our observance today of the 20th Anniversary Memorial of the Tienanmen Square Massacre should mark a break with that China-coddling past and we should allign our nation's policies with those countries who pursue peace, human rights, democracy, free elections, sound economic policies and mutual co-existence. We should make greater efforts to stop feeding the Dragon.

Not addressing what's right here. Just what is. Australia has a very lucrative relationship with China. So the intelligent media here pays a fair bit of attention.
20 years ago the children of the Ruling Class (the Princelings) were said to be in favour of ending the demonstrations violently, "What's worse; political instability or killing 20,000 people?" (Warning: this scenario may just be propaganda.)
This view now seems common (not universal) amongst those who are even prepared to talk about the massacre. "If the demonstrations had been allowed to continue then China would have missed out on these 20 years of economic development and growth."
Successful entrepreneurs have been joining the Chinese Communist Party for years. They seem to be aiming at a benevolent dictatorship.

For some in China the idea, "Business is good, whatever got us here was OK", contains no sarcastic subtext.

One medium term response of the Chinese government to the massacre? Increase nationalist fervour; direct the attention of the people towards external enemies and away from internal dissatisfactions. (Warning: subtext exists.)


 
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MisterCranky wrote:
You do realize that "Tienanmen" is the Fresno spelling, right? The rest of the English-speaking world spells it "Tiananmen."


Come over here so I can give you an old-fashioned Fresno-style kick in the crotch.
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