Recommend
32 
 Thumb up
 Hide
139 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 

Dominion: Intrigue» Forums » News

Subject: Saboteur, Secret Chamber and Wishing Well on TricTrac.net rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: todo [+] [View All]
Thomas Bugnon
Switzerland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Filosofia, the company editing Intrigue in French, has released the preview of 3 new cards in French:

http://www.trictrac.net/index.php3?id=jeux&rub=actualite&inf...

Saboteur (5 - Attack)
All your opponents reveal cards until a card costing 3 or more is revealed. They each trash their last revealed card and can receive a card costing 2 less than the trashed card. The other revealed cards are discarded.

Secret Chamber (2 - Reaction)
Main: Discard as many cards as you want. +1 coin for each discarded card.
Reaction: When an opponent plays an Attack card, you can reveal this card. If you do, +2 cards, then place 2 cards from your hand on your deck.

Wishing Well (3 - Action)
+1 Card, +1 Action
Name a card, then reveal the first card of your deck. If it is the named card, place it in your hand.

Edit: changed unveil with reveal (thanks Jeff)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Wolfe
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
Zendo fan, Columbus Blue Jackets fan, Dominion Fan.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In English:

unveil = reveal
unveiled = revealed
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Is it just me, or is Wishing Well completely useless? You only get a card if you fluke out and match what you wished for?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew M
United States
New Haven
Connecticut
flag msg tools
admin
8/8 FREE, PROTECTED
badge
513ers Assemble!
Avatar
mb
UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Is it just me, or is Wishing Well completely useless? You only get a card if you fluke out and match what you wished for?



Secret Chamber (as Reaction) ---> Wishing Well
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A H
England
Hemel Hempstead
Herts
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Is it just me, or is Wishing Well completely useless? You only get a card if you fluke out and match what you wished for?


Note that the following is just my assumption, not official:

As always in Dominion, you have to read the cards precisely. Thus, I assume that the Wished For card is in addition to the +1 Card, not a condition on it. Hence, you first Wish For a card, which you may or may not get. Then you draw another card, that you definitely take.

Hence Wishing Well is a card that always replaces itself, and sometimes gives you something extra. Not that different from Village, really, which also always replaces itself, and also sometimes gives you something extra (an Action, if you have an Action Card).
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew M
United States
New Haven
Connecticut
flag msg tools
admin
8/8 FREE, PROTECTED
badge
513ers Assemble!
Avatar
mb
scoobysnack wrote:


Hence Wishing Well is a card that always replaces itself, and sometimes gives you something extra. Not that different from Village, really, which also always replaces itself, and also sometimes gives you something extra (an Action, if you have an Action Card).


Though true, that doesn't make the card inherently useful. You can make the Village useful by buying more Action cards. The Wishing Well, on the other hand, get's considerably worse as the game goes on.

Further, "replacing itself" implies that the card has no real cost, when that isn't the case. It carries an opportunity cost in that you could have bought something else and drawn it instead of the Wishing Well. Would you rather draw a Wishing Well and then wish for a Silver when you could have just bought the Silver in the first place?

At the cost of 3, that's the minimum threshold of usefulness the Wishing Well needs to pass...that it ends up benefiting you more over the course of a game than it would have to have drawn a Silver in it's place every time it came up.

That said, the Wishing Well pays for itself if there are ways to mitigate the crap shoot. We already have one example of how it can do that. Who is to say it will be the only one....

-MMM
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A H
England
Hemel Hempstead
Herts
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Octavian wrote:
scoobysnack wrote:


Hence Wishing Well is a card that always replaces itself, and sometimes gives you something extra. Not that different from Village, really, which also always replaces itself, and also sometimes gives you something extra (an Action, if you have an Action Card).


Further, "replacing itself" implies that the card has no real cost, when that isn't the case. It carries an opportunity cost in that you could have bought something else and drawn it instead of the Wishing Well. Would you rather draw a Wishing Well and then wish for a Silver when you could have just bought the Silver in the first place?


I certainly don't want to argue the overall effectiveness of the card here when I've only just read about it.

However, here you are making the same mistake as Steven Duff.
IF you wish for a Silver successfully, then your hand ends up with 5 cards plus the Silver - not just the 5 cards including Silver that you would have had if you had simply bought the Silver.
Of course, the odds on Wishing for the Silver successfully early on would be small, but you definitely get a better hand when you hit it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Branko K.
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Is it just me, or is Wishing Well completely useless? You only get a card if you fluke out and match what you wished for?


Well it's basically a card that replaces itself and gives you a chance of another card. I don't know if it passes the "Silver test" but it seems fun. Card counters will probably love it. On the first glance I think it's about as useful as the Village.

As for

Quote:

That said, the Wishing Well pays for itself if there are ways to mitigate the crap shoot. We already have one example of how it can do that. Who is to say it will be the only one....


Which one is it? If you mean the Spy, then I beg to disagree, because the card you Spied on will be the one you draw *before* the wishing. You are basically wishing for the second card from the top and I don't know which card can help you with identifying it beforehand.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew M
United States
New Haven
Connecticut
flag msg tools
admin
8/8 FREE, PROTECTED
badge
513ers Assemble!
Avatar
mb
scoobysnack wrote:

IF you wish for a Silver successfully, then your hand ends up with 5 cards plus the Silver - not just the 5 cards including Silver that you would have had if you had simply bought the Silver.
Of course, the odds on Wishing for the Silver successfully early on would be small, but you definitely get a better hand when you hit it.


No, I agree with that. But as you point out, that is no sure thing - where as simply buying a Silver IS a sure thing.

How many times you need the wish to pay off to outweigh not having chosen to buy a Silver is debatable, but I think we can agree that it needs to pay off at least once, and more likely more than once before it outshines the usefulness of simply buying Silver. Which goes back to my point of needing to find ways to make the Wishing Well pay off for you more often to make the card useful.

-MMM

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew M
United States
New Haven
Connecticut
flag msg tools
admin
8/8 FREE, PROTECTED
badge
513ers Assemble!
Avatar
mb
baba44713 wrote:


Quote:

That said, the Wishing Well pays for itself if there are ways to mitigate the crap shoot. We already have one example of how it can do that. Who is to say it will be the only one....


Which one is it? If you mean the Spy, then I beg to disagree, because the card you Spied on will be the one you draw *before* the wishing. You are basically wishing for the second card from the top and I don't know which card can help you with identifying it beforehand.



As I said above - using the Reaction power of the Secret Chamber.

Also off the top of my head, if you've been subjected to multiple Bureaucrats then the Wishing Well will help you churn through those victory cards.

Granted, these are both very specific (and not regularly occurring) examples, but it would require very specific situations for the Wishing Well to make the transition from being a novelty to being practical.

-MMM
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A H
England
Hemel Hempstead
Herts
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Following up a bit more on Wishing Well...

One thing that is not clear from the supplied card text is what happens to the Wished For card if it is not what you were hoping for.
Is it discarded, or put back on the top of the deck (to then become the +1 Card that you receive)?

If the former, then you effectively get two shots at getting a particularly good card if you Wish For it - you'll get it if it's the second card down in the deck, as well as if it's the top one.
If it's the latter, you're almost certainly better off just Wishing For a common card (and hoping that the card you really want is the second one down!).

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Branko K.
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As for the other cards>

Tobulogic wrote:

Saboteur (5 - Attack)
All your opponents reveal cards until a card costing 3 or more is revealed. They each trash their last revealed card and can receive a card costing 2 less than the trashed card. The other revealed cards are discarded.


Chaplab killer. Me like. Even though the compensation seems a bit generous, I still relish the thought of chaining Saboteurs and destroying Provinces, Labs and Gold...


Quote:

Secret Chamber (2 - Reaction)
Main: Discard as many cards as you want. +1 coin for each discarded card.
Reaction: When an opponent plays an Attack card, you can reveal this card. If you do, +2 cards, then place 2 cards from your hand on your deck.


Main function - nice. Turn all those VPs from your hand into coins. Could be tricky to remember how many cards you discarded in long comboes, especially if you have to reshuffle.

Reaction - initially confusing but seems quite balanced. You basically get to "tweak" your hand by choosing 5 out of 7 cards. Chaining Reactions between turns doesn't help you at all and you still have to draw the 2 crappy cards you got rid off.

All in all Intrigue sounds.. intriguing. And I think the "multiplayer solitaire" crowd will have much less arguments with this bunch of cards.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew M
United States
New Haven
Connecticut
flag msg tools
admin
8/8 FREE, PROTECTED
badge
513ers Assemble!
Avatar
mb
baba44713 wrote:


Reaction - initially confusing but seems quite balanced. You basically get to "tweak" your hand by choosing 5 out of 7 cards. Chaining Reactions between turns doesn't help you at all and you still have to draw the 2 crappy cards you got rid off.



Not necessarily. Imagine Secret Chamber in a game with both Militia and Thief which get played against you back-to-back. Militia is played and I'll put back some useful cards that I'd like to draw later while keeping a couple VP cards that I will then discard. The the thief is played and I pick up those cards I had put back and replace them with actions that the Thief can't pilfer.

-MMM
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Bugnon
Switzerland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
scoobysnack wrote:

One thing that is not clear from the supplied card text is what happens to the Wished For card if it is not what you were hoping for.
Is it discarded, or put back on the top of the deck (to then become the +1 Card that you receive)?


The French text does not specify, but if I remember the rules correctly, it says that revealed cards go back where they come from unless otherwise specified. This corresponds to how moats work. You reveal it from your hand and it goes back to your hand. In this case, I guess the revealed card goes back on top of your deck as it is its origin.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew M
United States
New Haven
Connecticut
flag msg tools
admin
8/8 FREE, PROTECTED
badge
513ers Assemble!
Avatar
mb
scoobysnack wrote:

One thing that is not clear from the supplied card text is what happens to the Wished For card if it is not what you were hoping for.
Is it discarded, or put back on the top of the deck (to then become the +1 Card that you receive)?



Revealed cards are returned to where they came from unless the text says to do otherwise. A revealed Moat is returned to your hand after being revealed, for example.


--edit--
Thomas was faster on the draw than I!


-MMM
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Hollinsworth
United States
Cranston
Rhode Island
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
baba44713 wrote:
Which one is it? If you mean the Spy, then I beg to disagree, because the card you Spied on will be the one you draw *before* the wishing.

scoobysnack wrote:
One thing that is not clear from the supplied card text is what happens to the Wished For card if it is not what you were hoping for. Is it discarded, or put back on the top of the deck (to then become the +1 Card that you receive)?


OK, now I have a rules question. When you play a card like Wishing Well that both gives card draws and messes with the top of your deck, which do you do first? Do you draw first and then wish, or wish first and then draw? Or is it the player's choice of order?

If it's draw first, then yes, Wishing Well is next to useless. If it's wish first, then there are ways to manipulate what you draw (Bureaucrat, Spy).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A H
England
Hemel Hempstead
Herts
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
DaveHollinsworth wrote:
baba44713 wrote:
Which one is it? If you mean the Spy, then I beg to disagree, because the card you Spied on will be the one you draw *before* the wishing.

scoobysnack wrote:
One thing that is not clear from the supplied card text is what happens to the Wished For card if it is not what you were hoping for. Is it discarded, or put back on the top of the deck (to then become the +1 Card that you receive)?


OK, now I have a rules question. When you play a card like Wishing Well that both gives card draws and messes with the top of your deck, which do you do first? Do you draw first and then wish, or wish first and then draw? Or is it the player's choice of order?

If it's draw first, then yes, Wishing Well is next to useless. If it's wish first, then there are ways to manipulate what you draw (Bureaucrat, Spy).


Upon reflection, I think that Branko is correct, and the draw occurs before the wish. Cards are acted upon from the top downwards, and the actual picture at the link clearly has the standard card effects before the special action text.

I agree that this seems to make the card less useful than I had assumed originally.

I have to assume that game development showed that this was the correct way to do things. I very much doubt if a card would have been released in a main expansion that really is "next to useless"!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Branko K.
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I really don't think it's "next to useless".

First, even if you guess wrongly, you still get to see what your next card is. Often this can be quite useful, especially if you have more Actions left.

Also, *you* control your card distribution. Wishing Well is probably a nice addition to a deck with low variance.

Finally, as Octavian already said, in conjunction with the Secret Chamber you actually get to SEE the card, so in that scenario Wishing Well effectively turns into a low-cost Lab.

As I said, the card is for me very similar to Village, even though Village appears much more powerful to a newcomer's eye.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Jean
Canada
Québec City
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Secret chamber is really good against new action-attack cards
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max Fightmaster
United Kingdom
London
London
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I have to say, I'm surprised that the humble Well isn't getting a tiny bit more love.

Sure, the other two cards are really obviously good. One of them is a brutal attack that can kick provinces/duchies out of opponents' decks, and the other can singlehandedly turn lab->lab->lab chains into big money payouts while also protecting you from several attacks for the measly price of 2g.

But that Well still deserves our warm and tender love. Why? Because it's the cheapest laboratory that any of us will ever buy. Seriously, even in a non-dedicated deck it's a cut-price lab that doesn't have a drawback; you pick one or two up in the early game, yell "copper" every time and your deck is likely to act precisely like you were throwing down a high-rolling 5-cost card, just one or two turns ahead of schedule. Sure, late-game it gets a little bit less funktacular, unless you're just buying up silvers (or any other single card) in ridiculous quantities, but it's still a 'free' play that ought to have let you get a significant jump on the rest of the competition and will still occasionally 'pay-out'.

On the other hand, throw it into a chapel-related deck and it's prone to going completely bonkers. Its chance of hitting the named card will be huge (as your deck will only consist of about ten total cards), making it a near-guaranteed super-cheap laboratory. It'll also be the ideal thing to hand to your opponents when they smirkingly play masquerade, will combo perfectly with secret chamber and be the ideal thing to replace labs with when they get hit with saboteur.

Sure, it's not a ZOMG-inducing game-breaker, but it's a solid little cog that really shine in the right decks and the right set-ups.

My bet is that this card will be rated low for its first couple of months, then will steadily climb the rankings to the middle-ground after people start to realise how versatile it is (and how awesome it is if you guess correctly a couple of times on the trot).
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Branko K.
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The problem is that in the early game a Silver might be more useful then the Well, even if it *guaranteed* you that Copper, which it doesn't. Getting a Well in the early game instead of Silver could potentially be just marginally less stupid then getting a Village.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eugene van der Pijll
Netherlands
Den Haag
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
baba44713 wrote:
Finally, as Octavian already said, in conjunction with the Secret Chamber you actually get to SEE the card, so in that scenario Wishing Well effectively turns into a low-cost Lab.

And don't forget that we haven't seen even half of the new cards in Intrigue yet.

Wishing Well would also combine well with a card "Reorder the first 3 cards in your deck any way you wish". I would be surprised if a card like that is not planned for a future expansion, if not this one.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fluff Da Sheep
Belgium
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's been five minutes and I already hate the Saboteur with a passion. It adds even more luck into a game that's too luck-infested for its own good. Maybe if it didn't affect victory point cards... but killing provinces? Come on, that'll just win you the game right there.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Kudzma
United States
Millsboro
Delaware
flag msg tools
designer
People are...
badge
SPOCKED!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Is it just me, or is Wishing Well completely useless? You only get a card if you fluke out and match what you wished for?


The spy would let you peek

There's also another card in this expansion that creates a fun combo.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Branko K.
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
locusshifter wrote:

The spy would let you peek


No it wouldn't.

fluffdasheep wrote:
It's been five minutes and I already hate the Saboteur with a passion. It adds even more luck into a game that's too luck-infested for its own good. Maybe if it didn't affect victory point cards... but killing provinces? Come on, that'll just win you the game right there.


It also adds interaction. And strategy. And so what if it kills Provinces.. who forces you to buy them? If you go for fast Province rush with your supersonic Chapel cycle deck and I utterly destroy it with my Saboteur-fueled deck, it's not really "bad luck", now init?

Dominion was always a game where you fiddle with distributions and probability and risk mitigation. If you want to call it "luck-infested", well, that's your call. I'm looking forward to all the nasty stuff Intrigue offers.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.