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Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage» Forums » Rules

Subject: 18.3 and army size rss

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Patrick B
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Have only played this game once, two years ago, and I'm re-reading the rules for a game this weekend.

18.3 says "However, an Army led by a Proconsul is allowed to be larger than the Consular Armies and may pass through, a Consular Army containing 5 or more CUs without restrictions."

Now, according to 10.6, #1, "Then select up to 10 CUs and any number of subordinates to accompany the commanding General".

So, 18.3 seems to be saying that Proconsul armies can be greater than 10.

EDIT: ...without picking up another general's army along the way, as in 10.8. If he did picked up a consul, it would be become a Consular army; if proconsul was Scipio, or picking up Scipio, it would still be a pProconsul army

Thoughts?
 
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Mateusz Wilk
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bignickel wrote:

Now, according to 10.6, #1, "Then select up to 10 CUs and any number of subordinates to accompany the commanding General".

So, 18.3 seems to be saying that Proconsul armies can be greater than 10.


Theoretically you are right, but, pursuant to 10.2 you cannot move armies bigger than 10 anyway, so such proconsular army would be stuck in one place until split . That's how I see it, at least.
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Patrick B
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But, 18.3 says Proconsular armies can be bigger than Consular Armies. And Consular armies are 10 or less, according to the previous rule.



Unless.....

18.3 is worded backwards. What it MEANT to say was the Proconsular armies could be SMALLER than Consular Armies (which can't voluntarily be less than 5). It's my guess that when a Consular army of 2 CU (due to previous battle, perhaps) moves into a space with a Consular army of 5 or so, then then the activated army MUST stop moving (because of the 'less than 5' rule in 18.1).

However, the Proconsular army can move through a Consular army space (of possibly less than 5 CU), give up a few CU to get it to 5, and KEEP moving, even though it might have less than 5. Which a Consular Army wouldn't be able to do.

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Steve Bachman
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Pretty sure it just means a Proconsular army of any size (including 6-10CU) may move through a Consular army space of 5-10CU without restriction.
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Peter White
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Steve is correct.

The original AH 1.0 version of the rules said a proconsular army could never be bigger than a consular army in that space at any moment in time. While interesting, that was rather fussy, according to some.

The 2.0 rules adopted language that made it clear proconsular army size had no special restrictions, as long as the consular army in the same space was of at least size 5. The Valley Game rules were based on the 2.0 rules, and may reading slightly oddly to a new reader.

However, the rules as written are absolutely correct and self consistent. There is no limit on army size. An army can be of any size.

Quote:
10.1 ...A General and the CUs stacked with him are collectively called an "Army."...


The relevant restrictions are on how one can move an army:
* May be no larger than 10 CUs if --
-- moved by general Activation
-- moved by Avoid battle
* May be any size if --
-- moved by Retreat
-- moved by Witdrawal
-- moved by Interception

That last one surprised me! I see no restriction on how large an intercepting army may be.

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Volker Hirscher
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Peter, where did you find those restrictions? The first three are clear, but where are the rules for movement restriction during withdrawal or interception?

While I feel a bit unsure about withdrawal, I think that interception is restricted to 10 CUs, because of this rule 12.1:

Quote:
Interception is a special kind of movement


And because it is a movement, it is restricted - no more than 10 CUs
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Volker Hirscher
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Just another note: I confirm that there is no CU limit in a withdrawal. The rule say "you withdraw your complete army", and an army is defined as "all CUs in a space", so things are quite clear.
 
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Andy Latto
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mavo wrote:
Just another note: I confirm that there is no CU limit in a withdrawal. The rule say "you withdraw your complete army", and an army is defined as "all CUs in a space", so things are quite clear.


Avoiding Battle, on the other hand, is limited to 10 CU.

Quote:
13.2 Restrictions on Avoiding Battle

No more than 10 CUs may avoid battle. An army that contains more than 10 CUs must leave behind all CUs in excess of 10.


This is an odd distinction; why can the whole army run away once they have started fighting, but not before? But the rules seem unambiguous to me in both cases.

[Edit: removed nonsense and inappropriate critcism resulting from my confusion of Avoid Battle and Withdrawal]


 
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Tony Chen
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From what I remember only retreats can be more than 10 CUs?

Quote:
But, 18.3 says Proconsular armies can be bigger than Consular Armies. And Consular armies are 10 or less, according to the previous rule.

So? Proconsular can be bigger than Consular, and Consular could be 10 or less.

"Can" means that it is possible. And since Consular isn't always 10--it could be less sometimes--it is possible for Proconsular to be larger.

We both take a test. The score ranges from 0-100. You can score higher than me--there are no rules that ban you from doing so. I can score anywhere from 0-100. Does that mean you will score higher than 100?
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Russ Williams
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andylatto wrote:
mavo wrote:
Just another note: I confirm that there is no CU limit in a withdrawal. The rule say "you withdraw your complete army", and an army is defined as "all CUs in a space", so things are quite clear.

I don't understand why people think it's useful to reply to rules queries from memory, without looking the rules up. But if you're going to do this, could you at least say "I think" or "I seem to recall", rather than "the rules say", so as not to create an impression that you actually looked at the rules?

Agreed.

Quote:
What the rules actually say on the subject is
Quote:
13.2 Restrictions on Avoiding Battle

No more than 10 CUs may avoid battle. An army that contains more than 10 CUs must leave behind all CUs in excess of 10.

But Avoiding Battle is a different thing than Withdrawing from battle, so this rule quote is seemingly irrelevant...

About Withdrawing, the rules say
Quote:
16.3 A withdrawing army may not split up

But unfortunately don't talk about whether 10 CUs has relevance or not. I.e. it's not clear from that whether:
1. An army with more than 10 CUs can not withdraw (because it can't split up and there's a movement limit of 10)
or
2. An army with more than 10 CUs can withdraw (because it doesn't split up, and no limit of 10 CUs is mentioned for withdrawing).

...sigh.

I'm inclined to think a large army can withdraw, since no restriction of 10 CUs is mentioned, and the restriction of 10 CUs is mentioned in the context of normal movement by playing a strategy card (10.2).

On the other hand, retreat explicitly mentions "The 10 CU movement limit does not apply during retreats; any size force (commanded by a general or not) defeated in battle must be retreated." (15.1), so why doesn't Withdraw mention that? Simple oversight? (That quote was added in red text as a clarification to Retreat rules.) Or in order to imply that the limit does apply?
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Volker Hirscher
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Andy, could you explain what's the reason for provoking me???

Quote:
mavo wrote:
Just another note: I confirm that there is no CU limit in a withdrawal. The rule say "you withdraw your complete army", and an army is defined as "all CUs in a space", so things are quite clear.

I don't understand why people think it's useful to reply to rules queries from memory, without looking the rules up. But if you're going to do this, could you at least say "I think" or "I seem to recall", rather than "the rules say", so as not to create an impression that you actually looked at the rules?


I hate it when people tell things they do not know. Of course I looked in the rule`s, but I did not quote them. Where is the problem? Are we fucking lawyers or something? If I say "I confirm" I think it's clear I found it in the rules. If you would like to know the rules paragraph, you could have asked in a gentle way.

Quote:
What the rules actually say on the subject is
Quote:
13.2 Restrictions on Avoiding Battle
No more than 10 CUs may avoid battle. An army that contains more than 10 CUs must leave behind all CUs in excess of 10.


Seems you did not get what was discussed, sorry.

Quote:
You didn't look up the rule in question


Lie!

Quote:
and surely you can't be under the misconception that you've memorized all 27 pages of rules verbatim. So why fabricate a quote


If have wanted to quote, I would have done so - just as I did in a lot of other questions regarding Hannibal (see even a few posts above!!!)

So, if anyone thinks it is better to get help from people that even do not get the point... great. I'm a patient person, but unjustified blame drives me crazy. shake Sorry for being a bit rude...

For your peace of soul (and maybe Russ', I'm not sure), paragraph 16:
Quote:
A successful withdrawal ends the battle and forces the
withdrawing player to move his army to an adjacent space


And now the definition of army (to make it clear):
Quote:
Army: An Army consists of a general and any number of
friendly combat units stacked together in a space.


Got it??
 
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Peter White
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To recap:

There is no limitation on the size of the army. I do not think we have any controversy here. The question is around size limitations on kinds of movement.

If the rules do not explicitly state a size restriction for a type of army movement, then we must assume there is no restriction.

I have found restrictions for general Activation and Avoid battle. I do not know of any size restriction for Retreat, Withdrawal, and Interception, based on my reading of the rules. If you think I missed something, please let me know.

That is the Rules As Written.

Now, if you think there should be a restriction on Interception (or Withdrawal), I would suggest either finding basis within the rules for that opinion or start a separate thread on that topic.


(I am not trying to be rude to anyone, but I think this is the most constructive approach to resolving these issues.)
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Hi Peter,

please look again at my post directly after yours above.

It is like that (without quoting again, as I qouted in the post above): Interception is a special kind of movement. Movement is restricted to 10 CUs. Consequence: Interception is also restricted.

So, the 10 CU limit does not apply to "activation", but to "movement".
Edit Correction: sorry, apply is not the correct word here. What I mean is that the limit is in general valid for movement

Another quote:
Quote:
The sequence below must be observed when moving an army:
1. Select the general you wish to activate. If there are two or
more generals with an army you may designate which is the
commanding general (under the restrictions of 9.3). Then
select up to 10 CUs and any number of subordinates to
accompany the commanding general. ...


And regarding withdrawal, things are also quite clear: look at the end of my post before your last post (the part where I found back to dispassion )
 
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Andy Latto
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Quote:
Andy, could you explain what's the reason for provoking me???


My apologies. I confused Avoid Battle with Withdrawal, and my post is completely wrong.

I agree that Withdrawal, unlike Avoid Battle, can be done with an army of any size.

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Volker Hirscher
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Accepted - I was also a little bit rude... blush
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