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Subject: When your active race is wiped out.... or not. rss

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Dann May
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Had an interesting rules quirk pop up last night...

I was playing Amazons, and had some Ghouls in decline.

On the second last turn my Amazons were completely wiped
from the board - no counters left. Except for the four
reserve tokens in my hand. Normally I would have just sent
them into decline, but it was the last turn...

So then we argued the ins and outs. Could I on my last turn
use my reserve amazons to just take out a few regions and then
return them to my hand? Or when my last amazon was removed from
the board, does that automatically mean I can't use amazons
anymore?

Personally I think you should just be able to use them to
wreack a tiny bit of havoc on your opponents then run away,
But the friend I was going to pester didnt think so, thought
that I could only use the extra tokens if I was adding them
to existing tokens.

So does anyone know of rules for when you get wiped out completely?
Does this automatically send you into decline? Which could be
important if it then forces your in decline race to vanish!




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H-B-G
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I can't see anything in the rules that says you can't use those 4 tokens as long as you remove them at the end of your turn. They are part of the Amazons' ability and that persists as long as they are active. It is established in a number of cases that a race can remain active even if it has no units left.
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Dann May
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Cheers, thanks Dave. If it's easy enough could you tell where to find an example of a race staying active even after they are wiped out? That was his main point of contention, be good to be able to point it out.
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H-B-G
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While not being a specific case, the general rule is

Quote:
All active units destroyed
If all your active units are destroyed in one turn you may:
1) Score points only with the in-decline race.
or 2) Go into decline and score 0 for that turn.
You may not take a new combo this turn

which is a quote from http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/391216 and also from the FAQ thread at Days of Wonder's site. This establishes that you are not forced into decline.

The usual relevance is that this enables you to keep scoring with your declined race, but it also allows you to keep your active race's powers which can sometimes be significant in cases such as the Amazons (as here) or the Alchemist power which earns you 2 points per turn regardless of how many regions you occupy
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Philip Thomas
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DaveD wrote:
While not being a specific case, the general rule is

Quote:
All active units destroyed
If all your active units are destroyed in one turn you may:
1) Score points only with the in-decline race.
or 2) Go into decline and score 0 for that turn.
You may not take a new combo this turn

which is a quote from http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/391216 and also from the FAQ thread at Days of Wonder's site. This establishes that you are not forced into decline.

The usual relevance is that this enables you to keep scoring with your declined race, but it also allows you to keep your active race's powers which can sometimes be significant in cases such as the Amazons (as here) or the Alchemist power which earns you 2 points per turn regardless of how many regions you occupy


That doesn't look quite right to me. The rules say you can do one of 2 things. Option 1 is "Score points only with the in-decline race". I don't see how you can conclude from that that a person who takes Option 1 is allowed to get 2 points from the Alchemist Power. It clearly says you only get points with the in-decline race...

Also, Jumpseat, you have the cutest avatar

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H-B-G
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Yes, but that is a general rule. Normally if you occupy no areas you score no points but if you have not gone into decline your race is still active, the Alchemist power is to score 2 points, it does not require that you occupy any regions. The wording is specific.

Rules Page 10 wrote:
Alchemist
Collect 2 bonus Victory coins at the end of each
turn your race hasn't yet gone into Decline
.
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Steven Barcelo
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It also seems to be worth clarifying whether you mean removed from the game when you say removed from the board (i.e. every one of your conquered regions only had one amazon on it). If not, and you still had some amazons in hand but just no regions to place them in, then the Enemy Losses and Withdrawals sections clearly states that you can come in from the side of the board again at the start of your next urn.



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William Roop
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The 4 amazon tokens in your hand are NOT active tokens once you remove them from the board. This means once your tokens on the board are totally removed, you have NO active tokens in your race. These 4 are only active during the conquest phase. (Check in the rule book under Amazon race description.)
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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Going into decline is clearly a voluntary act. The 4 extra Amazon tokens should be able to attack as a "First Conquest" if all other Amazons are gone and the race has not gone into decline.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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Beholm wrote:
The 4 amazon tokens in your hand are NOT active tokens once you remove them from the board. This means once your tokens on the board are totally removed, you have NO active tokens in your race. These 4 are only active during the conquest phase. (Check in the rule book under Amazon race description.)


Where in the rulebook does it say you must have active tokens? You take the 4 extras in hand when you ready your troops. When you "ready your troops", you may take tokens in hand, so you could have zero and then add the 4 Amazons.
 
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Gunther Buytaert
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Yesterday I had a similar situation:
Active: Pillaging Amazons
In Decline: Skeletons (5 regions)

All my amazons on the board were wiped out. With the 4 amazons in my hand, I was able to conquer 2 non-empty regions. After this I took 4 amazons back in hand

I calculated my points:
2 points for Pillaging 2 regions
0 points for amazons
5 points for the skeletons in decline
 
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Travis Hall
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Philip Thomas wrote:
That doesn't look quite right to me. The rules say you can do one of 2 things. Option 1 is "Score points only with the in-decline race". I don't see how you can conclude from that that a person who takes Option 1 is allowed to get 2 points from the Alchemist Power. It clearly says you only get points with the in-decline race...

You aren't quoting from the rules. You are quoting from a fan-compiled FAQ. The original wording can be found here, in a post by Antoine. It is notable that Antoine did not use the word "only".
 
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