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Subject: Do people really count out the Copper? rss

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In any player game, I believe you're only supposed to have 60 Copper in the supply. However, I've seen many games where people don't bother counting them. 12 Estates are easy to count out, and Silver and Gold are always going to be used fully, but it seems to be extra work for nothing when in practice, Copper is unlimited. Closest I've seen was a game with the Big Money set where the Silver deck was down to a third of what it started off as.

Has anyone actually depleted the Copper deck in a game?
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David desJardins
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ackmondual wrote:
In any player game, I believe you're only supposed to have 60 Copper in the supply.


Where did you get that idea? I don't think it's in the rules.

The design intention is to have enough money that it doesn't run out.
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Andrew Hardin
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DaviddesJ wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
In any player game, I believe you're only supposed to have 60 Copper in the supply.


Where did you get that idea? I don't think it's in the rules.

The design intention is to have enough money that it doesn't run out.


Given the pile exhaustion ending condition I have always taken the pile counts to be strictly limited. I don't recall ever reading a rule stating that the money piles are unlimited. Since all other piles are limited it seems natural that in the absence of clarification the money piles would also be limited.

- Lex
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ackmondual wrote:
In any player game, I believe you're only supposed to have 60 Copper in the supply.


According to the rules, the game comes with 60 copper cards. You then use some of these 60 coppers to give each player their initial 7 coppers.
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Bwian, just
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I have actually seen the Copper deck run out: Gardens were involved, of course, and three players (perhaps foolishly) aiming for a similar strategy. That said, I've never seen anyone count out the cards, because you use the same amount for every game. We rarely count the kingdom cards, either, for the same reason. You just throw all the cards on the table, and only count if someone gets confused during the game and thinks they only saw 9 Markets purchased or something.

DaviddesJ wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
In any player game, I believe you're only supposed to have 60 Copper in the supply.

Where did you get that idea? I don't think it's in the rules.

The design intention is to have enough money that it doesn't run out.

Citation? I've never heard that money is supposed to be infinite before.
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LexH wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
In any player game, I believe you're only supposed to have 60 Copper in the supply.


Where did you get that idea? I don't think it's in the rules.

The design intention is to have enough money that it doesn't run out.


Given the pile exhaustion ending condition I have always taken the pile counts to be strictly limited. I don't recall ever reading a rule stating that the money piles are unlimited. Since all other piles are limited it seems natural that in the absence of clarification the money piles would also be limited.

- Lex


Yes, the treasure cards can be run down as one of the piles to trigger the end game. They are not actually unlimited. But the design intention was to give you enough treasure cards that using them all would be a very rare occurance.
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David desJardins
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Bwian wrote:
Citation? I've never heard that money is supposed to be infinite before.


Money is not infinite. If you were to ship an infinite number of cards in the box, it would cost an infinite amount of money, and you would have zero buyers. What I said is that the intention of the designer was to put enough money cards in the box that they don't run out. He's said this more than once.

That's why there's no rule to remove some of the money cards from play when you have fewer than 4 players, which is what I thought the OP was suggesting, although perhaps I misunderstood.
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ackmondual wrote:
Has anyone actually depleted the Copper deck in a game?


Yep, even in 4 player games it can happen. I've seen it happen dozens of times.
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Myke Madsen
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The rules from Intrigue state:

"Copper, Silver, and Gold cards are the basic Treasure cards, and they are available in every game. After each player takes 7 Copper cards, place the remaining Copper cards and all of the Silver and Gold cards in face-up piles in the Supply. The Treasure cards from Dominion and Dominion: Intrigue can be combined, since these cards are intended to be in abundant enough supply to not run out. (If a type of Treasure card does run out, that becomes an empty pile in the Supply, which can be important for game ending conditions.)"
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Bwian wrote:
Citation? I've never heard that money is supposed to be infinite before.


Money is not infinite. If you were to ship an infinite number of cards in the box, it would cost an infinite amount of money, and you would have zero buyers. What I said is that the intention of the designer was to put enough money cards in the box that they don't run out. He's said this more than once.

That's why there's no rule to remove some of the money cards from play when you have fewer than 4 players, which is what I thought the OP was suggesting, although perhaps I misunderstood.
I'm sure people meant that the supply was to be practically infinite as far as the game goes, as opposed to literally.

But yeah, that was part of my question. If the Copper isn't counted out and some games end sooner than later b/c all the Copper actually do get bought and trigger endgame, that seems to be too arbitrary. Then again, if it keeps players from having to count a set # of Copper for something doesn't occur often no less, I can live with that. The time saved is worth it. I probably might get paranoid and check that I have 10 of each action card every now and then and the appropriate # of Gold and Silver much less frequently, but that's also arbitrary that people don't make sure they have the appropriate # action cards anwasy.




DaviddesJ wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
In any player game, I believe you're only supposed to have 60 Copper in the supply.


Where did you get that idea? I don't think it's in the rules.

The design intention is to have enough money that it doesn't run out.
Thought I read somewhere in the Intrigue rules that if the Copper does run out, it counts towards a depleted stack. I'll post back and reference it if I do find it.

EDIT: someone else cited what I read here
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/3621424#3621424
 
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Bwian wrote:
Quote:


The design intention is to have enough money that it doesn't run out.

Citation? I've never heard that money is supposed to be infinite before.
[/q]

The Intrigue rules suggest combining the Treasure cards from both sets regardless of number of players. They still count as a depleted stack if they run out, but that isn't intended to be a very common occurrence.

-MMM
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David desJardins
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Octavian wrote:
They still count as a depleted stack if they run out, but that isn't intended to be a very common occurrence.


That's the same thing I said!

This is a decidedly odd set of responses to my posting. Do people really not see the difference between, "The design intention is to have enough money that it doesn't run out," and, "The rules say you should go make up some extra money cards if it runs out"?
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Octavian wrote:
They still count as a depleted stack if they run out, but that isn't intended to be a very common occurrence.


That's the same thing I said!

This is a decidedly odd set of responses to my posting. Do people really not see the difference between, "The design intention is to have enough money that it doesn't run out," and, "The rules say you should go make up some extra money cards if it runs out"?


I was backing up what you said (but messed up the quotes so it didn't seem so at first).
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Unlike David, I think that the Copper deck is limited.
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locusshifter wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
Has anyone actually depleted the Copper deck in a game?


Yep, even in 4 player games it can happen. I've seen it happen dozens of times.


'even in a 4 player game'? I'd think it's inherently most common in a 4 player game. In a 4 player game it starts only 32 Coppers deep (compare: 46 cards deep in 2er), and there are twice as many players chipping away at it (again, relative to 2er).
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Octavian wrote:
They still count as a depleted stack if they run out, but that isn't intended to be a very common occurrence.

That's the same thing I said!

This is a decidedly odd set of responses to my posting. Do people really not see the difference between, "The design intention is to have enough money that it doesn't run out," and, "The rules say you should go make up some extra money cards if it runs out"?

But what we want to know is, why do you think that money is infinite?
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David desJardins
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thatmarkguy wrote:
'even in a 4 player game'? I'd think it's inherently most common in a 4 player game.


No, he's saying it's inherently more common when playing with 5 or 6 players but no extra money.
 
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David desJardins
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Unlike Morgan, I think David thinks that money is finite.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Octavian wrote:
They still count as a depleted stack if they run out, but that isn't intended to be a very common occurrence.


That's the same thing I said!

This is a decidedly odd set of responses to my posting. Do people really not see the difference between, "The design intention is to have enough money that it doesn't run out," and, "The rules say you should go make up some extra money cards if it runs out"?


Well, its kind of a dumb distinction, honestly.

The only relevant question is "Is this game component piece-limited?", meaning that its depletion indicates that nobody can obtain it any more. The answer is clearly yes, yes it is piece limited.

So saying "The design intention is to have enough money that it doesn't run out." is kind of missing the point - the intention is to have 60 copper in the game so they put 60 copper in the box. Run out, or don't, as your groups play style sees fit.

Due to quantities supplied it is obviously not likely to run out very often. And if you have the expansion the supply is even larger, so it is not considered a pillar of the games overall strategy by the designer.
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David desJardins
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apotheos wrote:
So saying "The design intention is to have enough money that it doesn't run out." is kind of missing the point


It seems like you're the one missing the point. The question was, do the rules say that you should play with fewer Copper in the deck if you have less players in the game, to make the chance of running out the same as if you had more players? The answer to that is no, you are supposed to play with all of the Copper that you have. And the reason for that answer is that the design intention is for the Copper to never run out, the only reason you would ever run out is because they didn't want everyone to have to pay for a lot of extra Copper cards that would almost never get used. The fact that you can sometimes, theoretically, run out of Copper and Silver is a limitation that stems from the realities of game publishing, not from any design goal, and there's no reason to do anything to encourage it to happen more.
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Myke Madsen
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GOOD GOD HERE WE GO AGAIN

What was a simple question easily answered by referencing the rules has turned into a pointless squabble over semantics.

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Mat Nowak
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HappyProle wrote:
The rules from Intrigue state:

"Copper, Silver, and Gold cards are the basic Treasure cards, and they are available in every game. After each player takes 7 Copper cards, place the remaining Copper cards and all of the Silver and Gold cards in face-up piles in the Supply. The Treasure cards from Dominion and Dominion: Intrigue can be combined, since these cards are intended to be in abundant enough supply to not run out. (If a type of Treasure card does run out, that becomes an empty pile in the Supply, which can be important for game ending conditions.)"

This settles the debate (why is it still going on?) but to me this doesn't really make sense. On the one hand this says that the treasure cards are "intended to be in abundant enough supply to not run out", but then says that depleting a treasure pile counts for "game ending conditions". This seems like two opposing points to me, but the rules do state that both are correct, so I'll accept it. (Although if it was up to me only non-treasure cards would count for the stack depletion scenario).
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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DaviddesJ wrote:
And the reason for that answer is that the design intention is for the Copper to never run out


No, the design intention is that you run out after the number of cards are exhausted. You are unquestionably fabricating this intention to "never run out".

Pile depletion is a core mechanic. An intention to "never run out" would involve proxies. I think it is unquestionable that one should not do this with Dominion.

But I did miss the real intent of the OP, it was worded in an awkward way to my reading. Subtracting 7 copper per missing player wouldn't change much anyway.

 
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David desJardins
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I would say, what was a boring discussion about actual facts easily settled by reference to the rules, has turned into an exciting and engaging philosophical discussion about the spirit of the rules.
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David desJardins
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apotheos wrote:
You are unquestionably fabricating this intention to "never run out".


I am certain that I read, more than once, that Donald wrote that he tried to put in enough money cards so that they wouldn't normally run out. But I can't find it right now, so believe I fabricated it if you like.
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