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Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage» Forums » Rules

Subject: Scipio Africanus (or Hannibal) retreating with no CU's rss

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Eddie B
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Played the game for the second time today and ended up with one question. I checked the rules questions but couldn't find the answer.

Here is what happened:

Carthage with 10 CU's attacked Scipio Africanus who had 3 CU's. Scipio A. lost the battle, we rolled for attrition and we both lost 3 CU's. At that points Scipio A. had no more troops. Scipio A. now has to retreat without any CU's left. I said Scipio had to roll on the retreat table, even tough he has no more CU's, he rolled and his die result was such that he had to lose another CU. I assumed Scipio A. was killed now (he is the only Roman general that can get killed btw, and the killing occured on a retreat) but my opponent said that he couldn't be killed since he had no CU's.

Who is right? Should Scipio A. be killed after such a retreat? Or is my opponent right?

Thanks.
 
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Aaron Cappocchi
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You are correct. The retreat table roll kills Scipio A. (or Hannibal) - as soon as he has no more troops left as a result of retreat table roll, retreat losses, or Naval Table losses, they are dead. Rule 10.10.

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burrie wrote:
Played the game for the second time today and ended up with one question. I checked the rules questions but couldn't find the answer.

Here is what happened:

Carthage with 10 CU's attacked Scipio Africanus who had 3 CU's. Scipio A. lost the battle, we rolled for attrition and we both lost 3 CU's. At that points Scipio A. had no more troops. Scipio A. now has to retreat without any CU's left. I said Scipio had to roll on the retreat table, even tough he has no more CU's, he rolled and his die result was such that he had to lose another CU. I assumed Scipio A. was killed now (he is the only Roman general that can get killed btw, and the killing occured on a retreat) but my opponent said that he couldn't be killed since he had no CU's.

Who is right? Should Scipio A. be killed after such a retreat? Or is my opponent right?

Thanks.


According to Rule 10.10, your opponent is correct. How the last CU is lost determines whether or not the General is displaced. A Battle Casualties die roll that removes the last CU does not cause displacement - the General then retreats with no CUs. In order for Scipio A. to be displaced in your situation, he would have had to have one CU left over to be lost in the retreat.
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Volker Hirscher
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Mmmmh - now this question was a really interesting one. If you look at rule 10.10, Evan is right. But somehow I feel that is now how it was meant to be. Any clarifications on this?

Note: edited for typo (see bold word above - a heavy mistake )
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Eddie B
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Funny, two answers and both are different.

On the one hand you can argue and say that the General manages to escapre by himself and doesn't have to suffer for retreat since he is alone.

On the other hand you can say that it would be in the spirit of the game that the Scipio A. gets eliminated. If he would have had 1 CU left and he would have lost that CU during retreat he would have been dead.

Interesting... Still don't know what to do. Rule 10.10 isn't very clear on this.
 
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Chris Montgomery
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Common sense would dictate that if the entire army is eliminated, all generals are displaced/eliminated. However, the 2nd Ed rules are pretty clear:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gnichols/glg/Hannibal2ed.pdf

Quote:
10.10 Displaced Generals

A general becomes displaced if an enemy army enters the general's space and the general is not accompanied by friendly CUs. A general also becomes displaced if all CUs accompanying the general are eliminated due to Retreat Table casualties, Retreat losses or the Naval Table. A general is not displaced if all CUs under his command are removed due to the Attrition Table, the Storm at Sea event (#60) or the Battle Casualties die roll.

If Scipio Africanus is displaced, he is eliminated.

If Hannibal is displaced he is eliminated and the Carthaginian player must remove 5 PC markers from any spaces on the map. This is in addition to any PCs losses resulting from the battle that led to Hannibal's death.

A displaced general is removed from the map and does not return to play until the next Reinforcement Phase (see 5).


It is possible that this particular rule set does not match verbatim with the 2nd Ed. rules as published, but I found this on a quick search of Google.

Chris
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Volker Hirscher
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Chris, I think this rules excerpt is exactly what we are discussing. It says "a general is displaced if all the CUs with him are eliminated due to retreat table losses". But in the situation mentioned above, there is no CU who could die...

So, still unsure about it, but I personally will play it so that the general is displaced - I would change the word "due" to "after"...
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Chris Montgomery
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Exactly. The rules are clear. I would think that a general who lost all his CUs for whatever reason should be displaced, but the rules are clear that in the situation posted by the OP, Scipio A. would be displaced.

It can't be made more clear based on the excerpt.

If a general loses all his CUs from Battle, he is not displaced. If he loses all his CUs in retreat, he is. Thus, even 1 CU loss with a general that has no CUs is a displacement during retreat.

Chris
 
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Kevin Duke
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I agree. The rules say he isn't lost because he lost all his CUs in combat, but he is if the final losses happen during retreat. It doesn't make any sense that he's "killed" if he has 1 CU but has no effect if he doesn't have any CU with him.

If the retreat roll had been such that no further losses had to be taken, he would just retreat.

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Peter White
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Quote:
A general also becomes displaced if all CUs accompanying the general are eliminated due to Retreat Table casualties, Retreat losses or the Naval Table. A general is not displaced if all CUs under his command are removed due to the Attrition Table, the Storm at Sea event (#60) or the Battle Casualties die roll.


Scipio A. certainly did lose all the CUs accompanying him during Retreat, due to the Retreat table.

Mathematically speaking, one cannot deny that "0 CUs" = "all CUs" under these circumstances.
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Russ Williams
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So perhaps the intent is that if you lose all your CUs AND you lost the battle (therefore must retreat), then you are displaced.

But if you lost all your CUs but WON the battle (therefore don't retreat), then you are not displaced. I'm guessing/hoping that's the solution to the mystery.
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Volker Hirscher
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And to add to Russ' statement:
If you lost all your CUs but do not loose any during retreat, your general is also not displaced - right?
 
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Mark Simonitch
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In the example above, Scipio is displaced unless the battle was won with a Probe card and the Retreat roll was 0. Had Scipio won the battle, but lost all his CUs--he would not be displaced.
I hope that helps.
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Eddie B
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Simon7itch wrote:
In the example above, Scipio is displaced unless the battle was won with a Probe card and the Retreat roll was 0. Had Scipio won the battle, but lost all his CUs--he would not be displaced.
I hope that helps.


The master himself. Thanks for helping us out.
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Yes,thank you very much!
 
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Jim Lee

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Mark:

Is he displaced (and lost) because: "A general becomes displaced if an enemy army enters the general's space and the general is not accompanied by friendly CUs"? In other words, the Carthagian's entered Scipio's space after the battle with him as the lone survivor.

So, Scipio's forces were eliminated in the above example due to battle casualties only; tus, there is no retreat and no retreat table roll for Scipio, correct?
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Hi all,

I found myself coming back to this thread and to Mark's official answer again and again, and because Mark made his statement referring to the example, I have to re-think each time. For ease of use (for me and others), let's sum Marks statement up:

"When a general loses a battle, and loses all CUs due to battle casualties, he is still displaced if he loses at least one CU due to the retreat table roll (although he does not actually lose a CU, because he has 0 CUs). If he does not lose a CU due to the retreat table roll, he is not displaced"

Everyone agrees that this is what Mark actually stated?
 
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