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Besides the platoon sized counters? I would like to make this game my first preorder ever.....I'm in love with Chad and GMT but I really disliked Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42.

From the limited amount of info I've been able to figure out about the play of the game it reminds me a little of CoH.

Tell me how wrong I am.......please.

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Robert Wilson
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Its by Kai and Chad isnt that enough?
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David desJardins
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TonyClifton wrote:
Tell me how wrong I am.......please.


It's impossible if you don't say what you disliked about COH.
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TonyClifton wrote:
Besides the platoon sized counters? I would like to make this game my first preorder ever.....I'm in love with Chad and GMT but I really disliked Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42.

From the limited amount of info I've been able to figure out about the play of the game it reminds me a little of CoH.

Tell me how wrong I am.......please.



Interesting, I looked at a quick description of this game and thought "Hey, that's reminiscent of CoH," and then remembered Chat posting on ConsimWorld awhile back that he was "borrowing" some ideas from CoH.

Of course, I love CoH, so I don't really have a problem with that. It looks like an interesting game.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Tell me how wrong I am.......please.


It's impossible if you don't say what you disliked about COH.


Why do you need to know what I disliked about CoH to tell me what the differences are between the two?
 
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James Palmer
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TonyClifton wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Tell me how wrong I am.......please.


It's impossible if you don't say what you disliked about COH.


Why do you need to know what I disliked about CoH to tell me what the differences are between the two?


I'm guessing because like any game, there are thousands of little differences, and probably only a handful that would be important to you?
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Whew ok I'll rephrase the question Are the two games very different?

If so how?
 
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David desJardins
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TonyClifton wrote:
Whew ok I'll rephrase the question Are the two games very different?


The question seems unanswerable to me. It all depends on your point of view, which you aren't willing to reveal. Maybe someone else can help.
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TonyClifton wrote:
Whew ok I'll rephrase the question Are the two games very different?

If so how?


Yes, they are very different - the one I find significantly more difficult to pronounce.
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I only know what I've read from the various materials available on GMT website. From looking at the description there do seem to be a number of differences which, if I'm right, would solve some of the more annoying aspects of CoH. Firstly, (and I'm half guessing here) it seems that the initiative points, which seem to be an equivalent of APs and CAPs in CoH, are common to all units, and thus more like CAPs. Secondly, it seems that a unit using reactive or opportunity fire is not automatically marked spent; this only happens if it rolls less than a certain number. Together, these two "facts" (if indeed they are correct) seems to suggest that reactive/opportunity fire is much more flexible that OP fire in CoH. I found the limitations on OP fire in CoH too great: many units were only going to get one shot off during the other player's turn using OP fire and CAPs. This meant it could be quite easy to cross open ground that was covered by machineguns. However, the ability to respond more often during the other player's turn, which the two points I mentioned seem to suggest, would help make such ahistorical tactics harder.

I may, of course, be putting two and two together to make five, but this is my impression so far from the limited information available.

EDIT: from rummaging around Consimworld, it seems that the initiative points are actually shared; when you spend your initiative, you move the pawn marking initiative towards the other player, and when it finally moves into minus for you/plus for them, it becomes your opponent's turn. Not like CAPs at all then!
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Quote:
it seems that the initiative points, which seem to be an equivalent of APs and CAPs in CoH, are common to all units, and thus more like CAPs.

Close. Initiative belongs to the players. It moves back and forth along a track that has "0" in the middle and goes out to "20" on either end, with each end pointing to one of the players. Players spend Initiative to (1) announce orders, (2) activate units for those orders, and (3) conduct Opportunity/Reactive Fire. The latter two can be done regardless of where the Initiative marker is on the track; the former can only be done if the Initiative is on your side of 0.

So unlike CAPs in CoH, Initiative in Fighting Formations isn't "spent" so much as "given" to your opponent.

Quote:
a unit using reactive or opportunity fire is not automatically marked spent; this only happens if it rolls less than a certain number.

Right. Units have a "Rate of Fire" stat. With ROF, lower is better. ROF works like this: when a unit Op Fires, if either die shows a number that is less than or equal to that unit's ROF, it becomes Spent and can no longer Op Fire for the remainder of that order.

One similarity between CoH and FF is the use of Hit markers. I actually had Hit markers in FF before I saw that they were used in CoH. However, I liked some aspects of how CoH uses them and so I tweaked how mine worked to be a little closer, though they are still quite different in the details of their effects.

Vehicles and guns in both games have a defined facing. Infantry units in FF do not have facing.

There are hundreds of other differences between the two games, som eobvious and some subtle. The human mind is wired to search for familiarity. So things you've read about FF that seem similar to what has already come in CoH or other tactical may actually be quite different than what appears at first glance.
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David desJardins
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Chad Jensen wrote:
The human mind is wired to search for familiarity.


Also, Chad may be too modest to say this, but many game designers are pretty derivative and so if you predict that what they produce will look a lot like previous games on the same subject you will often be right. But I can confidently predict that FF will have more novel features than most new wargames, even without having played it myself. Of course, there's no guarantee that novel features will be good, sometimes the benefit of tried and true is that people have learned from experience.
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LEHaskell wrote:
If I may ask, Chad: is the Initiative related to turn order (ie "I have the Intitative therefore it is my turn to act" or "my turn to act first") or is it a resource that the player can spend a la Combat Commander?


More the first. Take a look at:



The Initiative track is along the bottom with the orders above it. The numbers on the order track are the initiative cost to perform that order (or any below it). When the Initiative marker is on your side, it is your turn to act. You then chose an available order (marked by wooden tokens) and pay the initiative cost by moving the initiative marker toward your opponent. Assuming the order cube is taken from the Soviet Move row, a Soviet Move order (for example) moves the Initiative marker 2 spots towards the German player As Chad points out below, the move order could have a higher initiative cost, but lets keep this example simple

After conducting the order, you look where the marker is. If it is still on your side, you may act again and perform the next order. But if it shifted to the German side, it is the German's initiative (turn) to act.

So you can see some of the choices here. If you want to make a large initiative order, you might move the marker deep onto the other side allowing your opponent to make a series of small initiative orders before you get to act again.

Italicized comments added to clarify the example based on Chad's comments below
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Quote:
is the Initiative related to turn order (ie "I have the Intitative therefore it is my turn to act" or "my turn to act first") or is it a resource that the player can spend a la Combat Commander?

Both.

When an order ends, players check to see which side of "0" the Initiative marker is on. That player announces the next order. However, it doesn't matter which side of 0 the Initiative marker occupies for purposes of activating units for an order or for the opponent to conduct Op Fire.

Quote:
A Soviet Move order (for example) would move the Initiative marker 2 spots towards the German player.

Almost. A Soviet Move order occupies the "2" row of the Matrix -- but that means that a cube taken from any box except the "1" box can be used for a Soviet Move order.

For example, if I'm playing the Soviets and remove an order cube from the "6" box I immediately do two things:

1. lose 6 Initiative (sliding the marker six spaces towards my opponent); and

2. Select any one Soviet order on or below the "6" row to perform. So I could choose Asset, Move, Fire, Rally, Sniper or Advance.

I would then spend Initiative to activate units for the order. During the order my opponent could spend Initiative to perform Op Fire at my acting units.
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Thanks for answering the "unanswerable" question guys the game looks great.............
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TonyClifton wrote:
Thanks for answering the "unanswerable" question guys the game looks great.............


So, is it very different from COH? I'm curious.
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Yes and you are also an annoying goof. Thanks for taking all that time not helping at all........did I mention that you are a goof?
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I have played both and I like CoH but I love FF. I ordered 2 copies today one to play and one to keep sealed, can't wait for this one, thanks Chad
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The best thing I saw david described as was a

"rabid contrarian"

he does have a lot of thoughtful insight into game situations that I wouldnt have thought of however
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Hobiecat wrote:
I have played both and I like CoH but I love FF. I ordered 2 copies today one to play and one to keep sealed, can't wait for this one, thanks Chad


Thanks, Mike. You and the others who played the game at GMT West were a great help. A couple of minor but important tweaks to the game came about because of your feedback.

*golf clap*
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TonyClifton wrote:
Besides the platoon sized counters? I would like to make this game my first preorder ever.....I'm in love with Chad and GMT but I really disliked Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42.

From the limited amount of info I've been able to figure out about the play of the game it reminds me a little of CoH.

Tell me how wrong I am.......please.



Tony,

you are so wrong ;-)

Seriously, after playing CoH for the first time, i couldn't help thinking: now that was a complete waste of precious time. Apart from staring at some of the most hideous looking counters i've come across in a contemporary wargame, i never ever got excited about what to do with my cardboard forces. The basic concept behind CoH is clever and witty, but it really is a very lightweight package for the casual gamer. No serious try to deliver combined arms warfare in a box and thus no need for the players to know anything at all about fire and manoeuvre. Not my cup of tea.

Now after reading through all the available files here and at GMT, i have quite high expectations that FF will score big time here. Very much looking forward to my first game.

Jan
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Thanks guys I love when fans and designers wade in to help a guy out.

This site has really helped take the mystery and a lot of the risk out of buying games for me.
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COH has just won an award at Origins a few days ago so obviously the concept underlying the game has some significant support within the (war) gaming community ...

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TonyClifton wrote:
Thanks guys I love when fans and designers wade in to help a guy out.

This site has really helped take the mystery and a lot of the risk out of buying games for me.




Just had to quote this because it pretty much sums up what I really enjoy about BGG and it's users!


Well, along with the 50 bazillion other cool things that BGG does of course... thumbsup
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Mallet wrote:
COH has just won an award at Origins a few days ago so obviously the concept underlying the game has some significant support within the (war) gaming community ...



Not really. The Origins awards have pretty much zero credibility in the wargaming hobby and haven't for years. The Charles S Roberts awards have more credibility, but even there wargamers really don't put a lot of stock in awards.
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